Magic show

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Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:07 am

Hi People.

I find the caricature posted by Dorothy in my "slanting Casuarina" thread funny and intriguing but very realistic.
(can any body help me re post the photo here, my technical knowledge is quite limited hehehe)

So...I wanted to start this new thread to enlighten most bonsai people (me included) with regards to bonsai demonstration performed during shows/exhibits.
I saw some of the before and after of the trees, some were impressive but mostly are done just to impress the audience specially those people in the audience who has very little knowledge if none at all with bonsai and the very meticulous process that took place in creating one good piece.
Many trees used in demos came from a bush like materials then after cutting and bending branches inward, outward, up, down, side to side (just for a single branch), then Tadahh!!! or Tatahh!!! (what ever)---the bush is now a bonsai! but then I asked my self- If this tree belongs to the demo magician and he wanted to go with the right lengthy process will he be doing the same "instant tree technique". sooner or later this particular tree will look like a topiary and the long concealed branches will attain no taper and other basic problems will also occur. Why not just show the very first step of creating a bonsai to the audience,,,though the tree will not be very bonsai looking one, but at least true knowledge will be pass on to the real interested beginners among the audience, and just probably show a future program regimen and the perceived future outcome of the piece involved.
Some other instant tree making technique were also done,,,but it will take more than a thousand words if I wrote it down.

Mastery is different from "Magicry "

...Well, I love magic. but not in Bonsai.
...no fighting please.

with love and regards,
jun
Smile


Last edited by jun on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:58 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Magic show

Post  ogi uyehara on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:16 am

ehem... expect a long tread!!! What a Face

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:41 am

Copy and paste to your desktop Jun.

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:47 am

ogi uyehara wrote:ehem... expect a long tread!!! What a Face

Hi Ogie.

I remember, I saw some of the demo performed here locally. doing the same thing...I was too young then its in one of the malls here, I clearly remember lot of the guys (local) doing a demo contest on Phempis acidula. Some of the Phempis I saw then got wild neglected appearance with very long thin branches (which later in life that I found out were needed to create thick good branches, other wise you'll need to start up again) were cut and shaped to create an instant bonsai.

Now I watched very closely. and suspiciously... Suspect Suspect

I am now a proud member of PBSI (hehehe). and I will throw in this question next time I saw one. affraid

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:53 am

Thanks Will!

I really love the funny "sarcasm" of this one from Dorothy.

I wonder what else is inside that magic hat...probably a 2 meter long slab landscape...hehehe.


regards,
jun
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Re: Magic show

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:42 am

Basically I hate demo, demo can easily misdirect people especially to the new comers..they will think that bonsai can instantly be done within few hours. Demo can be easier done with connifers because you can twist the branches here and there to form the design, but not the case with deciduous tree because the ramification structure is different and can only be trained by time. But many demonstrators work on deciduous tree like junipers which I think not educative.

From my experiences, I do demo in two different ways depends on the program, either it is a demo in kind of convention with few demonstrators on the stage...or an education program where audiences expect to learn something instead of watching a show.

I consider a demo in convention with few demonstrators at the same time is more an entertainment rather that learning (in certain extend..) because I cannot talk too much. In this case, I prefer to use materials which I can create suprise to the audience by turning out a design which was not anticipated by the audience. In this case, ideal material is very important, and sometimes very simple material can give even better impact. The key is the showmanship.
The below pictures when I did in Mexico and Puerto Rico, I combined two simple materials to create something unique...





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Re: Magic show

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:52 am

But in a teaching program, I don't concern on the performance of the "show", but rather using materials which I can talk more on the concept I want to pass on. From my experiences of facing problem when demo on deciduous trees, then I invented so called the "Dummy Branches" (branches made of wire with styrofoam which can be bend, twisted or cut..) for my teaching demo purpose. I found this tool very helpful to explain the correct ramification structure of deciduous trees, and to simulate the programming process and visualize the final design.

These pictures were when I was in Argentina and Mistral Congrress....






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Re: Magic show

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:54 am

lol! ....I was once an amateur magician and dreamed to be a pro; but bonsai took over this hobby... Laughing


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Re: Magic show

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:37 pm

Robert is exactly correct in his demo approach. Couple more points to add. One is the difference between a tropical tree and a temperate tree. The fast growth of tropical trees and the ability (usually) to bud back strongly means that a tropical bonsai demonstration will not create an instant bonsai but rather the framework to start the tree. Newbee artists may be disappointed but experienced artists understand what is going on when the tree looks like something Morticia Adams may have styled. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morticia_Addams) Robert's fake branches are an interesting concept but the reaction from people that have not been to the actual demo to hear what he has said is usually, "What the heck?

Another point is I believe a tree should survive a demo. If it means doing less work to place less stress on the tree then so be it. No sense making an "instant bonsai" which is all brown 2 months later. And having the trunk catch on fire is another no-no in my book. (but that's another story)

Finally, I see this with many conifer demos, the artists bend the heck out of branches to make the foliage come closer to the trunk which may look decent today but in the long term but will look like a poor design - the branches look like the wires behind a stereo cabinet sporting a canopy. A better approach is to explain how to work slowly and to even graft new branches in close to make a better tree in the long run. In the colder climates long time may really be a long time but bonsai artists should be patient. I've been working on some trees for more than 11 years and they still are not show ready.

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Very nice Robert.

You're the MAN!

...some people doing demo are doing things for the show and see the demo as an opportunity to advance their own interest thru public exposure, with less conviction on sharing knowledge. While most people in the audience wanted to see a miracle to be performed on a tree with little interest on learning.

regards,
jun
Smile

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Re: Magic show

Post  xuan le on Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:20 pm


Another point is I believe a tree should survive a demo. If it means doing less work to place less stress on the tree then so be it. No sense making an "instant bonsai" which is all brown 2 months later. And having the trunk catch on fire is another no-no in my book. (but that's another story)

I wonder how many percent of the demo trees survive, is there a follow up?
Look back at the early articles in Bonsai Today many show maters' works on trees but very few show how these trees progress

Xuan

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:37 pm

Hi Xuan.

speaking of a tree on fire...
here is a hot one. It's my tree not a kiln and I am not baking inside the tree. hehehe.
For me it helps in burning out all rotten part of the inside of the deadwood which I cannot removed with any tools. then the carbon layer helps in creating barrier against fungus. but then again, its another story...and the tree survives with the living part protected by 3 inches thick of hardwood.





regards,
jun
Very Happy

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Re: Magic show

Post  dorothy7774 on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:07 pm

Robert Steven wrote: lol! ....I was once an amateur magician and dreamed to be a pro; but bonsai took over this hobby... Laughing



Now, this is funny! Now I understand how you come up with some of your magical designs... Very Happy

And then comes Jun with the burning tree..hahaha!! You guys...

But then,

there is something like an instant effect, but not an instant bonsai. Boon taught me a happy bonsai is a healthy bonsai. One has to go with his or her own judgement as to how far to carry the demo. What kills a coniferous material is not only the bending of major branches, but all the back and forth bending of the small branches. I call this the "error-and-trial-approach".

I asked Ryan Neil at the BSF Convention during a demo on a San Jose Juniper if he sometimes sacrifices the design of the tree for the demo effect ("magical" branches from up and behind, crossing branches, risky bending). He replied that Kimura taught him the health and the clean structure of the tree always comes first. Ryan's finishes demo trees all had a clear line, logical structure and no unnecessary jins or shari. He actually adjusted the design of another Juniper according to the fact that major work on a juniper and heavy bending at the same time might jeopardize the tree here in Florida. This makes sense to the audience. Coming to a stopping point during a demo only elevates my respect for a true teacher.

Also, a good demo tree is a material that has been nurtured and prepared for a length of time prior to a presentation. A tree like that can tolerate a lot of work and will make it with a good aftercare.

But then, admittingly, sometimes I like to be entertained too... geek

-dorothy




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Re: Magic show

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:10 pm

jun wrote:Hi Xuan.

speaking of a tree on fire...
here is a hot one. It's my tree not a kiln and I am not baking inside the tree. hehehe.
For me it helps in burning out all rotten part of the inside of the deadwood which I cannot removed with any tools. then the carbon layer helps in creating barrier against fungus. but then again, its another story...and the tree survives with the living part protected by 3 inches thick of hardwood.

regards,
jun
Very Happy

Yikes, hope your neighbors didn't call the fire department!

The problem with charred wood is it has lost virtually all of its structural integrity. Rotten interior wood can be patiently removed with long hand tools, sand blasting or using trained insects, like carpenter ants.
And not to mention the impact that heat can have on the health of the tree.

Interesting technique though. Be curious to see how it holds up long term.

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Re: Magic show

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
jun wrote:Hi Xuan.

speaking of a tree on fire...
here is a hot one. It's my tree not a kiln and I am not baking inside the tree. hehehe.
For me it helps in burning out all rotten part of the inside of the deadwood which I cannot removed with any tools. then the carbon layer helps in creating barrier against fungus. but then again, its another story...and the tree survives with the living part protected by 3 inches thick of hardwood.

regards,
jun
Very Happy

Yikes, hope your neighbors didn't call the fire department!

The problem with charred wood is it has lost virtually all of its structural integrity. Rotten interior wood can be patiently removed with long hand tools, sand blasting or using trained insects, like carpenter ants.
And not to mention the impact that heat can have on the health of the tree.

Interesting technique though. Be curious to see how it holds up long term.

Yes!!!! Concerning conifers, it takes out all the oil that helps preserve the wood....

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Re: Magic show

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:29 pm

dorothy7774 wrote: I asked Ryan Neil at the BSF Convention during a demo on a San Jose Juniper if he sometimes sacrifices the design of the tree for the demo effect ("magical" branches from up and behind, crossing branches, risky bending). He replied that Kimura taught him the health and the clean structure of the tree always comes first. Ryan's finishes demo trees all had a clear line, logical structure and no unnecessary jins or shari. He actually adjusted the design of another Juniper according to the fact that major work on a juniper and heavy bending at the same time might jeopardize the tree here in Florida. This makes sense to the audience. Coming to a stopping point during a demo only elevates my respect for a true teacher.

Also, a good demo tree is a material that has been nurtured and prepared for a length of time prior to a presentation. A tree like that can tolerate a lot of work and will make it with a good aftercare.

So very, very true. Thanks D. Isn't the most important part that EVERYONE makes it out alive? Good material shouldn't be thrown under the bus for the sake of a good show. If I want to see magic I'll go see David Copperfield.

R

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Re: Magic show

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:58 pm

..haha..Dorothy, it was in the farewel party of the ASPAC in Philippines many years back..2003 I think... I lost contact with my lovely asistant.. Laughing

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:04 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
jun wrote:Hi Xuan.

speaking of a tree on fire...
here is a hot one. It's my tree not a kiln and I am not baking inside the tree. hehehe.
For me it helps in burning out all rotten part of the inside of the deadwood which I cannot removed with any tools. then the carbon layer helps in creating barrier against fungus. but then again, its another story...and the tree survives with the living part protected by 3 inches thick of hardwood.

regards,
jun
Very Happy

Yikes, hope your neighbors didn't call the fire department!

The problem with charred wood is it has lost virtually all of its structural integrity. Rotten interior wood can be patiently removed with long hand tools, sand blasting or using trained insects, like carpenter ants.
And not to mention the impact that heat can have on the health of the tree.

Interesting technique though. Be curious to see how it holds up long term.


hahaha! I have a basis for my little oven... You see, there is a technique here of clearing woodlands thru slash and burn in preparation for planting crops. but the trees although partially burned still survived. and it is even happening in forest fire all over the world. scientifically speaking study , carbon particles do not rots away.
The tree above did not lost its structural integrity, only the surface of the deadwood (rotten part) were burned out. plus the dark burned color will add a natural dark color that it won't need re coloring ever.

here is the back of the tree where the live veins are safely protected.

the other part of the tree is kept wet all the time while baking is being done.


the temperature above is still in low mode...
here is the high temp..



for small flame I use my small flame thrower...



result close up....still needs some polishing works



As for the oil being removed- In the construction world where I work at...woods were intentionally dried out totally, original natural oil included. then new artificial substance were introduced to the dried wood. before top coat were applied. this first layer of chemical is commercially available- it is solvent based, deep penetrating type, and water proof. It seals wood, preserve, prevents fungal and mold growth that caused wood rots, and prevents insect attack...this is not applicable if the wood is not totally dry....We are using this chemical in open wooden decks. that we construct and our warranty to the client is 10 years before recoating is done.

regards,
jun
Smile

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:11 pm

Robert Steven wrote:..haha..Dorothy, it was in the farewel party of the ASPAC in Philippines many years back..2003 I think... I lost contact with my lovely asistant.. Laughing

I can look for her if you are interested... I love you I love you

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Re: Magic show

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Put on your local newspaper Jun ? haha...why not ! thumbs up

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Re: Magic show

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Robert Steven wrote:Put on your local newspaper Jun ? haha...why not ! thumbs up

You are famous, she'll come forth at once. who knows maybe she's reading your post here. Your hard work in bonsai will have its fruit at last. Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Magic show

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