Larch Hybrid

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Mon May 23, 2011 2:46 am

One of the trees at the Rochester show was a hybrid between L. kaempferi x L. laricina. Does anyone know if this has a name?
Iris

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  DougDT on Mon May 23, 2011 3:48 pm

I believe it's called a Dunkeld Larch see http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=925

Though it's a cross between European larch and Japanese larch, not American and Japanese larches.

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Tue May 24, 2011 1:42 am

Dunkeld Larch, Larix xmarschlinsii, is the hybrid between L. kaempferi and L. decidua. It is entirely different.
Iris

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Hybrid Larch

Post  bonsaisr on Sun May 29, 2011 1:55 am

Can anyone tell me if Dunkeld larch, L. marschlinsii, differs from its parents in bonsai response?
Iris

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  AlainK on Sun May 29, 2011 10:38 am

Yes I can ! Very Happy

It's closer to the Japanese larch, but the three species respond exactly the same.

From my small experience with Larix decidua, the Dunkeld larch is less prone to needles drying in the hot days of summer.

Apparently, the hybrid you're mentionning comes from a lab which is just a few miles from where i live. See this article.

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Sun May 29, 2011 4:47 pm

Now that's interesting. I don't think I can comment further.
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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  AlainK on Sun May 29, 2011 6:45 pm

Actually, i have several dunkeld larch that I grew from 2-3 yr-old seedlings I bought a dozen years ago.

The first one was planted in the ground, its place changed several times until it ended in a very sunny, dry spot where the top dried out when I was on holidays one year. It was about 3m50 high, it's afast grower when in the ground. So two years ago my son helped me dug it out, I reduced it to 1m50 and put it in a grow box :



The second one comes from the same bunch, it has always been pot-grown and is about 35 cm high (what a difference !). It used to be my avatar on the former IBC forum...



Once again, it was about 26° C this afternoon. We've had almost no rain in three months here, and it's unusually hot in the afternoon (in the 25s, which is usually the kind of weather we have in July !), but rather cool at night (8-10).

Fortunately, I'm broke, so I won't go on holidays this summer, and I'll be able to water my trees silent

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  Alain Bertrand on Mon May 30, 2011 7:38 pm

AlainK wrote:
Apparently, the hybrid you're mentionning comes from a lab which is just a few miles from where i live. See this article.

I have a japanese larch grown from a cutting. Whatever trick I tried with it, its growth was always horizontal. Then last week, in a genetic workshop, I talked with a scientist working at the same research center than those of your article and by chance we talked about larch cuttings and I learned that larches obtained this way always exhibit this plagiotrope growth. It is thus probably better to avoid larch cuttings for bonsai.

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  littleart-fx on Mon May 30, 2011 9:58 pm

Hi! All!

Do these hybrids exist....naturally?

See it as global warming,...and stuff....just wondering?

grtz m who is learing ins and outs of beton ciré....

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Tue May 31, 2011 2:26 am

There are many natural hybrids in the plant world. They often occur when man has disturbed the environment a little. Nowadays, natural hybrids often arise when an alien species is planted next to a native one. The Dunkeld larch developed 100 years ago when Japanese larches were planted in Scotland near the native Larix decidua.
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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  AlainK on Tue May 31, 2011 1:52 pm

Alain Bertrand wrote:
AlainK wrote:
Apparently, the hybrid you're mentionning comes from a lab which is just a few miles from where i live. See this article.

I have a japanese larch grown from a cutting. Whatever trick I tried with it, its growth was always horizontal. Then last week, in a genetic workshop, I talked with a scientist working at the same research center than those of your article and by chance we talked about larch cuttings and I learned that larches obtained this way always exhibit this plagiotrope growth. It is thus probably better to avoid larch cuttings for bonsai.

That's very interesting, though I've never tried cuttings on that species (Pépinières Beauchery at Crouy-sur-Cisse -41- has an interesting selection of bare-root seedlings for cheap).

The same seem to happen with Sequoiadendron giganteum cuttings.

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:15 pm

The hybrid I mentioned, L. kaempferi x L. laricina, is found in numerous sites all over upstate NY, where Japanese larch was planted for reforestation. The foliage looks like what you would expect, similar to both parents. The person who collects them reports that the hybrid responds better to wiring than American larch. Otherwise they are the same.
The hybrid has never been reported by botanists before now, much less named. I would like to name it. For a common name, we can call it the Finger Lakes* larch, since that is the area where they were first found. I would like to name it Larix xbrandweiniana, after a distinguished science educator. The trouble is, in order to have it properly identified by a taxonomist, and to publish a name, I need a cone. Nobody has ever seen a cone on this population. Failing that, I need to get out where they are and catch one in bloom, so I will at least get the flowers. Can anyone tell me, in Zone 4b to 5, when Larix laricina & L. kaempferi bloom?

For those from other continents, the Finger Lakes district is a broad belt stretching across the middle of NY State from south of Rochester to south of Syracuse. There are 5 main lakes & several smaller ones. They were gouged out of the hills by the glaciers during the Ice Age. They got their name because they are long & narrow, & fan out like the fingers of a glove. They are essentially land-locked fjords. The scenery is very beautiful & the area is most known for vineyards & wineries.
Iris

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Bloom time

Post  Jim McIntyre on Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:51 pm

Larch in my area ( probably a little warmer than the Finger Lakes - I live in Southern Ontario ) bloom just before the leaves break in late April .

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  Brett Summers on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:33 am

AlainK wrote:
Alain Bertrand wrote:
AlainK wrote:
Apparently, the hybrid you're mentionning comes from a lab which is just a few miles from where i live. See this article.

I have a japanese larch grown from a cutting. Whatever trick I tried with it, its growth was always horizontal. Then last week, in a genetic workshop, I talked with a scientist working at the same research center than those of your article and by chance we talked about larch cuttings and I learned that larches obtained this way always exhibit this plagiotrope growth. It is thus probably better to avoid larch cuttings for bonsai.

That's very interesting, though I've never tried cuttings on that species (Pépinières Beauchery at Crouy-sur-Cisse -41- has an interesting selection of bare-root seedlings for cheap).

The same seem to happen with Sequoiadendron giganteum cuttings.

Yes this is not limited to only the larch. It is a very interesting yet not well known fact that cuttings can differ in characteristics depending on where it is taken from the plant. Maybe limited to some conifers but not really sure?
If you take a cutting from the lower branches of a juniper it will grow in a horizontal form. If you take it from the apex it will grow in an upright fashion.
So if the larch cuttings are taken from the apex of the tree you should be able to overcome this.
I am sure there are some amazing plant facts tied up in this knowledge. alien

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:56 am

OK thats it!

Past few years I've always seen this group of what I assume are Tamarack, up on the opposite hill to the one I live on, now, they are a single solid stand and I think they are situated on a spot that was at one time a gravel ditch or a clearing in that its a solid block of color thats reasonably square shaped. I have been wanting to go explore and actually find it. Once it changes color in fall. A lot of land out my way is reforested pasture land. Including some of my land..So i will do it this year.

Iris can you find a picture of that Larch hybrid at all, needles and or cones? If I can find it out here I'll let you know, wouldn't that be exciting! I like Finger Lakes Larch that rings nicely. There is also a row of larches that were planted on the end of my road say 30 years ago when the extension into Jerusalem was completed from the town of Potter. They too are in a nice single file row.

Would it resemble a short needled Tamarack? Now I'm intrigued.
-Jay

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:59 am

I have also read that if you take a spruce cutting from a lateral branch its growth will always be sideways. And that its necessary to take cuttings/layers off the tops of the tree in order to get apically dominant trees. Are most larches available as Bonsai or pre-bonsai seed grown?

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:31 am

drgonzo wrote:A lot of land out my way is reforested pasture land. Including some of my land..So i will do it this year.
That is where they planted Japanese larch. I assume you can tell a Japanese larch from a tamarack. If they are not Japanese larch, but they are not tamarack, or they look like tamarack but have the red twigs of L. kaempferi, they are the hybrid.

drgonzo wrote:Iris can you find a picture of that Larch hybrid at all, needles and or cones? If I can find it out here I'll let you know, wouldn't that be exciting! I like Finger Lakes Larch that rings nicely. There is also a row of larches that were planted on the end of my road say 30 years ago when the extension into Jerusalem was completed from the town of Potter. They too are in a nice single file row.
-Jay
We were out in Livingston County and took a lot of pictures, but not on my camera. I have not heard from the person who took the pictures since, so they may have been lost. I have a couple of the hybrids, but they are getting ratty looking. I will take pictures in the spring.
Anything that was planted in a neat row are probably Japanese larch. The hybrid seedlings tend to turn up in drainage ditches and on the roadside, which is typical of new natural hybrids.
Would I could find a cone. As far as I know, there are no pictures. Bill Valavanis sells them, but I don't think he has any bonsai of them or any pictures.
If you find anything that looks like what I have described, please tell me when they are in bloom next spring & I will come tearing out there.
Iris

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:24 am

Iris,
I'll tell you this, what got me going on all this was a Tamarack I saw on the side of my road, small youngish tree. I wanted to harvest seeds from it to play around with a forest planting. This "baby" is located directly across the street from the row of Larch I mentioned but its growth habit seems more compact and I noticed the needles were very much like my Japanese larch bonsai only longer but not quite like a Tamarack. This small tree (15 ft?) is indeed in a roadside low spot. I'm going to start researching this as well as i may actually have a hybrid near by.

I bought my Larch (Japanese I assume) from Bill at the open house, it was in a 6 inch drum and had been styled nicely, you don't suppose it would be one of these hybrids? or does he only have those as Pre-bonsai?

If I DO find one Iris, you are more than welcome to my guest house, I'll show you my garden.
-Jay

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:42 am

after a bit of research I'm pleasantly surprised to find that the small tree aforementioned is probably a Japanese larch or at least an offspring of the larger Larches across the road from it. It was so small and squat like a Tamarack that I simply assumed it to be one. I will take photos of branches, needles and cones for you Iris and we'll ID it with more certainty when the sun comes back out this weekend.

I may even need to go over there tomorrow because even in the rain curiosity still kills the cat.

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  treeman on Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:03 pm

Very interesting post Thanks Iris.

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:36 pm

drgonzo wrote:
I bought my Larch (Japanese I assume) from Bill at the open house, it was in a 6 inch drum and had been styled nicely, you don't suppose it would be one of these hybrids? or does he only have those as Pre-bonsai?
-Jay
As far as I know, he only has these as pre-bonsai, but you'd better ask him.
Iris

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  marcus watts on Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:27 pm

i've looked into some forestry papers and in a test batch from the wild (about 200 trees) between 43% & 52% of the natural seedlings were hybrids when both parent species were found nearby. (they isolated a compound that only occurs in each parent tree and went from there, looking for it individually or in combination). unfortunately these hybrids then can cross polinate with the original, and any other larch species, so the trees growing from wild seedings are rarely able to be 100% identified or even named as the parenting could be of unknown percentages.

I cant wait for it to get light as i have a stunted wild larch from the kilder forest in my collection bought as a japanese larch - i know there are last years cones on it but it will be interesting to see how the edges appear.

when i worked on the propogation nursery there was constant work in creating new varients, hybrids etc and they always made sure they bred true to type or could not breed at all before going down the naming route. if you attempt to name a hybrid but the offspring from pollination dont stay true (ie some revert to the parents) it is not a true 'stable' species and therefore should not become a named variety

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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:36 pm

thats very interesting Marcus thank you for that.

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Larch Hybrid

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:58 pm

marcus watts wrote:the trees growing from wild seedings are rarely able to be 100% identified or even named as the parenting could be of unknown percentages.
That is why the taxonomists are waiting for me to find a branch with a cone or in flower before they will give a guess on identity. In a potted population of collected specimens of the hybrid, there were variations in the foliage, as one might expect even if the percentages were identical.

marcus watts wrote:when i worked on the propagation nursery there was constant work in creating new varients, hybrids etc and they always made sure they bred true to type or could not breed at all before going down the naming route. if you attempt to name a hybrid but the offspring from pollination don't stay true (ie some revert to the parents) it is not a true 'stable' species and therefore should not become a named variety
You are talking about production in the nursery trade, which is a different issue. In the case of a true natural hybrid, occurring where two native species overlap, the botanical name applies to the entire hybrid population, regardless of the exact percentage in each seedling. The Bitterroot larch is an example.
Larix x occilyal Bitterroot larch, Larix occidentalis [pollen] x Larix lyallii
Larix x lyalocci Bitterroot larch, Larix lyallii [pollen] x Larix occidentalis
I don't know why the reciprocal cross has a different name; that is not normal.
The Dunkeld larch and the Finger Lakes larch are not considered natural hybrids, because the Japanese larch did not travel to Scotland or North America of its own free will; it was brought there in captivity. They are cultivars. The Dunkeld larch has a botanical name for the record, Larix xmarschlinsii, but it is what they call an unplaced name and lacks complete taxonomic standing. If I get to publish Larix xbrandweiniana, it will have the same status.
However, in the world of cultivar registration, you can't register a seed-grown hybrid population, with two exceptions. One is orchids. The other is seed-grown annual vegetables & flowers, where the cultivars are apomictic or otherwise can be proved to be genetically identical, like a clone.
In order to register a conifer cultivar, I would have to register a single specimen, and include some evidence that it can be reproduced vegetatively. I have one of the Finger Lakes hybrids that had distinctive golden needles early in the season. If this trait persists next year, and I can find someone who wants to take a few cuttings, I will register it.
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Re: Larch Hybrid

Post  drgonzo on Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:31 pm

So in order to register it we have to prove it can be cloned??????


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