To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

View previous topic View next topic Go down

To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:34 am

ID a Hawthorn.

Who in this wide world could ID this Hawthorn?
Upon visual, The fruit is much larger than the common Hawthorn, maybe twice the size.
The leaves are less defined, more rounded and not as pronounced.
Also it is the middle of autumn and the leaves are still green and there are coupious amounts of fruit on tree, the berries have not started to drop yet.

Another question on propagating this Hawthorn,
By seed, in what way is best?
By cutting, hardwood cutting, softwood and when?
Or by air layer?






This is a very beautiful tree and i would love to know of these answers. This tree may be common in your area.
P.S. we dont need all answers at once, if you know of one, that would be fantastic.

Thank you in advance
Mick

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:36 am

I hope it is a Hawthorn or i'm going to look like a Embarassed

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:51 am

you know I read once that even arborists can have trouble ID'ing Hawthorns

One because the readily hybridize and
two sometimes you can have different shaped leaves on the same tree!

-ugh


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Crataegus monogyna

Post  RKatzin on Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:10 am

I think this is a One-seed Hawthorn, Crataegus monogyna or Common Hawthorn. The over-sized fruit may be due to better conditions.They are very common in my vicinity, some in the brush and some in peoples landscape.Those being watered and tended generally have many more flowers and much larger fruit than their wild counterparts. I have a nice one outback that produces a batch of seedlings, I can't say every year because I only discovered it last year tangled up in a brier patch. Once I cleared all that away and some light got in there seedlings popped up all around the perimeter of the canopy. I transplanted a dozen into a bed where they can grow. The tree is in the middle of my pond to be and will need to be removed when the pond goes in. Hawthorn suckers freely from the trunk and roots. The root suckers I let grow for a season and then take them once they have roots of their own. The suckers on the trunk I leave on till the following spring when I pull them off as a heal cutting, bringing a bit of the old bark along. These will strike roots in just a pot of potting spoil. A year in the pot and then out into the garden. Hawthorn are very slow growing trees and will take forever in a pot. Certainly one of my favorite trees Smile I also keep English Hawthorn, smaller leaf and orange berries.


Last edited by RKatzin on Sun May 01, 2011 6:56 am; edited 1 time in total

RKatzin
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  tim stubbs on Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:54 am

looking at the leaf shape and fruit size , it could be the japanese hawthorn , Crataegus cuneata but there are about 200+ types plus hybrids of all hawthorns so it might be impossible to id exactly . they are quite common as roadside trees over here and in large parks and stately homes as the berry stays on for months as the smaller birds seem to have trouble getting the larger berrys in their beak .
the nursery has used air layers to propagate these as true to type , they find it easyily roots

tim


tim stubbs
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:36 am

Thank you very much all, i will certainly check out all of these. I love this site.

Mick

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:27 am

Here is a picture of thorn comparison, I took these later today.
Two guys on my local forum think it could be "Crataegus mexicana" what do you think?

Mick

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  p@scal on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:05 am

Hello, Smile
Watch more on the (Crataegus punctata), is often the mexicana dépouvue of thorns ...

p@scal
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  JimLewis on Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:36 pm

As Man/Mountain said, identifying hawthorns is a crapshoot at the best of times. Prof. George Petrides, author of the best field guide to trees and shrubs in the USA has this to say about hawthorns:

"These plants, distinctive though they are as a group, are virtually indistinguishable as species except by the few botanists who have given the genus special study. Frequent hybridization, complicated by great individual variation confounds accurate identification. Even the specialists vary greatly in their decisions as to the validity of many forms." (Emphasis added.)

So, anyone purporting to ID a hawthorn from a picture on a computer is blowing smoke. Be happy knowing it is a hawthorn, Genus Crataegus and leave it at that. They're treated the same in a pot.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:21 pm

Thanks Jim, I like you alot. Laughing
I love people who shoot from the hip ThumbsUp

Mick

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  tim stubbs on Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:31 pm

JimLewis wrote:As Man/Mountain said, identifying hawthorns is a crapshoot at the best of times. Prof. George Petrides, author of the best field guide to trees and shrubs in the USA has this to say about hawthorns:

"These plants, distinctive though they are as a group, are virtually indistinguishable as species except by the few botanists who have given the genus special study. Frequent hybridization, complicated by great individual variation confounds accurate identification. Even the specialists vary greatly in their decisions as to the validity of many forms." (Emphasis added.)

So, anyone purporting to ID a hawthorn from a picture on a computer is blowing smoke. Be happy knowing it is a hawthorn, Genus Crataegus and leave it at that. They're treated the same in a pot.

i have only put forward an idea of which one it could be and as you expert has written "the best guide of trees and shrubs in the usa" , he may never have seen one from australia or japan or china or the UK .
BTW hawthorns make good fires

tim stubbs
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  JimLewis on Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:27 pm

he may never have seen one from australia or japan or china or the UK .

I know he'd done work in Asia and he headed an organization working on plants in Africa. European Haws are among the most studied of all (and where the propensity for extreme hybridization was first described) so I'd imagine he was familiar with there -- if I am, he was. FWIW take a look at the Wikipedia article on Crataegus taxonomy.

And, a computer screen is NOT where one would do any half-way serious taxonomy. On any Genus. I have to chuckle when the experts here say they can tell the various versions of Juniperus chinensis apart just from a screen shot.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:34 pm

I know it is hard to Identify any plant on a screen or a photo shot, but all I expect and so would anyone else, all I'm after is people to have a decent guess or a part educated guess. I know, as Jim has pointed out there are so many types of Hawthorn,hundreds, but if I can narrow it down to maybe 5 or 6 from some that are in the know or think they are but really doing it for a challenge, I would be happy because I can do the small work to properly identify or to say myself its a mongrel breed, after all there is no crataegus Australia.
So if you would like to have a go at identifying, or throw a few options around, please do so freely without feeling like an idiot because someone said you can't. If you would like more photos, close UPS or other info I am happy to oblige.

Mick.

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:41 pm

BTW, these trees were planted purposely in rows in a park, they were not self sown.

Mick.

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  RKatzin on Sun May 01, 2011 7:01 am

Hi Mick, have you tried crushing any of the haws to have a look at the seed. If there's more than one seed you could at least eliminate monogyna from the list of possibles.

RKatzin
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  tim stubbs on Sun May 01, 2011 7:19 am

JimLewis wrote:
he may never have seen one from australia or japan or china or the UK .

I know he'd done work in Asia and he headed an organization working on plants in Africa. European Haws are among the most studied of all (and where the propensity for extreme hybridization was first described) so I'd imagine he was familiar with there -- if I am, he was. FWIW take a look at the Wikipedia article on Crataegus taxonomy.

And, a computer screen is NOT where one would do any half-way serious taxonomy. On any Genus. I have to chuckle when the experts here say they can tell the various versions of Juniperus chinensis apart just from a screen shot.

a few points . one: even experts like your self get things wrong
two : mick asked for an opinion on which it could be
three : i gave him MY opinion
four : if i was an EXPERT , i would have told him EXACTLY which one it is
five: as they re planted in a line in a park ,they probably come from a nursery many years ago , and the one i use THINKS it is the japanese
hawthorn of which they know of atleast 6 sub varieties
six: I only THINK its that because of what i know
Seven: have YOU got any better suggestions

tim stubbs
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  handy mick on Sun May 01, 2011 10:43 am

Thank you RKatzin and Tim for your intrest and support.
I just ducked out and grabed a couple of the fruit, here they are open.
Here we see what looks like two seeds

With seed out it is certainly two distinct separate seeds


Thanks RKatzin, nice thinking.

Mick

handy mick
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: To ID a Hawthorn (pictures)

Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:36 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum