Yamadori and Europe

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Yamadori and Europe

Post  interested on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:04 am

I have been watching closely the prevalence of Yamadori in European collections and i have a big question.

Is anyone growing field stock or have you put all your eggs in one basket?

If the latter is the case, what happens when there are no more trees worth collecting?

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Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:24 am

Hello Interested? I can only speak for the UK but not all bonsai here is yamadori. Countries with high mountains tend to work on or sell good quality Yamadori. Quite a number of UK artists(myself included), rely on hedge, wasteground, garden or forestry material. Although this takes longer to work and refine, if designed well, will slide easily into an exhibition and give yamadori a run for its money. There were many trees in the Noelanders Trophy that were created from more humble material.

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  interested on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:30 am

Thanks for the reply Will, This was not a negative post, I am truly interested in the longevity of bonsai in Europe.

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:47 am

Hello Interested. I didn.t think you were being negative. the question mark was for your unusual name. I would think there is an unlimited supply of yamadori for those who want it and have the budget for it. There are many vast mountain ranges across Europe and I would imagine collectors have only scratched the surface. I have a few in my collection but not the quality you get in the Alps, Pyrennes, Dolomites or the many ranges in Spain.

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:52 am

Speaking for Northern Europe lowland countries like Denmark, there are only few places to get Yamadori. We can collect Pines in Norway and Sweden, or Oak and Beech at home. But that's pretty much that. Garden-yamadori is another possibility, and I have good stocks from this kind of collecting for Shohin or middle sized bonsai.

Few makes the trouble of field growing. But my friend Johnny Eslykke has done from a long time ago, and succeeds now harvesting from that method. I know of a few others doing this too. I have done it in a small amount too, but very limited.
I primarily get my raw material from garden centre nurseries, were I buy raw material and grow it on for bonsai purpose. Some times these collected trees are put in the ground for a few years to speed up growth.

I will newer get my hands on the big high quality yamadori trees, because I do not know were to collect them legally and I far from have the money to buy them.
But I am as happy getting good Shohin material the cheap and fun way, and occasionally buy pre-bonsai material I can work on and style my own way. One have to adjust after what's possible and great results can happen without expensive yamadori trees too, or buying finished bonsai also of to empty the valet.

Regards
Morten

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  ybonsai on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:17 am

will baddeley wrote:I have a few in my collection but not the quality you get in the Alps, Pyrennes, Dolomites or the many ranges in Spain.

Sure of it Will? Very Happy


Most trees in my garden are from yamadori,some are imported trees and a few are from a garden.

Since i met Mario Komsta i prepared cuttings to grow trees this way,i think you can learn a lot of doing it this way.
Cause you learn much about the growth of the trees , the maintaining and think what's best for the future of the tree instead of style the tree dirrectly it should be so you have something that looks good for the eye with all twisted spaghetti formed branches(this isn't a bad technique because in future when the buds come you can cut the spaghetti formed branches away,i only think the other technique is better for the future of the tree ) but not what's best for it.

For example if you see the topic of my sylvestris the first picture: the tree was styled on the more european way branches all curled up to have a result,and if you see the tree today the styling is different and better for the future of it.

Best regards,
Yannick

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  landerloos on Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:59 am

mmmm I would love some more yamadori in my garden, I work on everything exciting no mather where it comes from, I have quiet a lot japanese import, the so called garden yamadori aso....
I do also propagate cuttings mainly satsuki, Yannick can you contact me about itoigawa?

Peter

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Paul B (Scotland) on Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:34 pm


I was recently very lucky to spend a few hours in the garden of a well known Scottish potter (who also has a very nice collection of trees) and I was amazed and inspired by the stock growing in beds in his garden.

Most of the stock - Juniper, Larch, Pine and Hornbeam were planted as 'finger thick' rooted cuttings and grown out in the beds for roughly five years. The stock was worked on during this time - letting leaders grow, cut back hard, new leader grown, cut back hard. Branches were worked on and the roots were also worked on before the tree was planted back into the growing bed. The results are stunning and provide material for any level of workshop and I'm sure would give some yamadori a run for its money.

It inspired me so much, that this year I'll begin growing out and working on trees in my allotment. I have access to plenty of Larch, Scots Pine, Hawthorn and Yew seedlings. I hope to plant a dozen or so of each. Some I hope to 'harvest' earlier than others - maybe three years in the ground for Shohin material and longer for the larger stuff.

I was particularly impressed with how well Juniper develope, but I cant find a source of seedlings / rooted cuttings anywhere. Can anyone help?

I'd like to hear any tips for ground growing stock from anyone with experience.

Paul

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:05 pm

Hi Interested.

They're something else, aren't they? Pretty hard to top material like that.

I would suggest that you look back through the pages of the main bonsai forum, or do a search for the threads of jrodriguez about the shows in Taiwan. AMAZING bonsai, and I was shocked to learn the pines and junipers that I assumed were yamadori are in fact nursery grown material. Apparently, it is illegal to collect in the mountains there and the laws are actually enforced. Also, as I mentioned on Will's Noelanders thread, 2 of the junipers displayed there are 'San Jose', created from nursery material and every bit as stunning as the other junipers there. It IS possible!

As for what happens when they're all gone - the prices go WAY up.

Russell

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Lee Kennedy on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:01 pm

interested wrote:I have been watching closely the prevalence of Yamadori in European collections and i have a big question.

Is anyone growing field stock or have you put all your eggs in one basket?

If the latter is the case, what happens when there are no more trees worth collecting?

The problem as to why people are'nt growing in mass production comes down to market forces,people like buying yamadori,and this is relatively cheap for the collector to obtain for the market place,on the other hand a few acres of growing area is very expensive X time put in growing X time maintaning X actual time it takes to produce something exceptional X lack of a long growing season for much of europe.
The people of europe are also very tight fisted and you wouldnt see a suitable return on your money,would you grow and train something for 10 yrs to have people squabbling over 10 pounds?
Also many people assume it is easy to produce field grown tree's,but the opposite is the case,it's a job for master artists.Quite honestly bonsai in europe stands on the edge of a potentially big decline in many countries,for many different reasons.

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:08 pm

Lee Kennedy wrote:

The problem as to why people are'nt growing in mass production comes down to market forces,people like buying yamadori,and this is relatively cheap for the collector to obtain for the market place,on the other hand a few acres of growing area is very expensive X time put in growing X time maintaning X actual time it takes to produce something exceptional X lack of a long growing season for much of europe.
The people of europe are also very tight fisted and you wouldnt see a suitable return on your money,would you grow and train something for 10 yrs to have people squabbling over 10 pounds?
Also many people assume it is easy to produce field grown tree's,but the opposite is the case,it's a job for master artists.Quite honestly bonsai in europe stands on the edge of a potentially big decline in many countries,for many different reasons.

Hello Lee. Those reasons being?


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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Lee Kennedy on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:09 pm

will baddeley wrote:

Hello Lee. Those reasons being?

Hi Will,a combination of economy going kaput,prices of life's basic essentials through the roof,minimum wage=minimum standard of living,positive inflation and negative wage rises,ages of bonsai'ists getting older(pensions and savings underperforming),the numero uno show we all wanted to be at going kaput,importation difficulties,and other assorted kaputedness.
I reckon off the top of my head i know more people who have drifted away from bonsai in the last 5yrs than have come in,thats unhealthy,more nurserys are heading downhill than uphill,and then there is the question of future availability of material,why spend 10-20 yrs producing good material which will be difficult to sell when you can grow a field of potatoes with a decent profit margin?

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:55 pm

Bloody hell! Lee, pesimistic stuff. Being a public sector worker, I fully understand what your saying. Job security is also hanging heavy over everyones head. I think a lot of people come and go in bonsai. Some stay involved for life at various degrees of commitment. Do you have any idea why the people you talk of have left the scene?
Growing in the ground has never appealed to me. With the wealth of Garden and hedge material available to those prepared to ask, field grown material is too long winded.

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Tony on Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:52 pm

All hobbies/pastimes etc. wax and wane bonsai is no different, all of Lees observations apply to all folk who have some disposable income, whether your hobby is Budgies or Bonsai. In all the years I have been into bonsai one thing never changes... folk think that bonsai is cheap... and 'Quality' should be cheap... but anything of real 'Quality' is never cheap.

lets be honest here how many folk on this forum would spend over £2000 or $3000 on raw material? I am NOT advocating that to have great bonsai this is the price to pay... however if you DO pay these prices you are more likely to have an amazing specimen in your collection faster than if you spent 15 years creating something from poor material...

for the record I have never spent this amount on raw or finished material (but I have come close)

Also... Yamadori in Europe is cheaper now than 10 years ago...why?... coz folk have NO MONEY

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  craigw on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:01 am

In my mind Yamadori represent only one aspect of bonsai, purpose grown bonsai have a completely different feel to them. If you visit the great Japanese collections they contain both yamadori and the finely grown bonsai developed from seed and cuttings.
I have to say I am addicted to field growing trees and have some raised beds at the back of my garden which can hold about 100 trees all of which I have propagated myself. I have been doing this seriously for around 8 years now, it has been a bit of a learning curve. The main thing is to spend some years preparing the trees before planting them out. I wire the trunks when they are very young in order to get curves way down low and also make sure they have a good completely radial root system which pulls the trunk base out and creates a flared base which is such a feature of the purpose grown japanese trees. Lastly is the positioning of the sacrifice branches, these branches only thicken the portion of the trunk below them so its important for them to be low down the tree to create taper.
To develop a reasonable trunk would take around 10-15 years I would say thats for a really well tapered tree of around 40-60cm. I don;t care about time it passes and I really look forwards to the late winter when I lift my trees and see how the root bases have developed for the season
Craigw

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:47 am

tony wrote:
lets be honest here how many folk on this forum would spend over £2000 or $3000 on raw material? I am NOT advocating that to have great bonsai this is the price to pay... however if you DO pay these prices you are more likely to have an amazing specimen in your collection faster than if you spent 15 years creating something from poor material..

Tomy...Anything other than expensive yamadori is poor material? I beg to differ. Artists at the top of their game are under GREAT pressure to show something exquisite and "new" on a regular basis to stay at the top. I personally am happy to plod on, taking my time, with good quality, affordable material. So what if it takes a decade to get to show. I have bought more expensive Yamadori, but the trees that mean the most to me, I have collected myself from more humble settings. Each to their own I say Very Happy

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Yamadori and Europe

Post  sunip on Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:54 am

craigw wrote:In my mind Yamadori represent only one aspect of bonsai, purpose grown bonsai have a completely different feel to them. If you visit the great Japanese collections they contain both yamadori and the finely grown bonsai developed from seed and cuttings.
I have to say I am addicted to field growing trees and have some raised beds at the back of my garden which can hold about 100 trees all of which I have propagated myself. I have been doing this seriously for around 8 years now, it has been a bit of a learning curve. The main thing is to spend some years preparing the trees before planting them out. I wire the trunks when they are very young in order to get curves way down low and also make sure they have a good completely radial root system which pulls the trunk base out and creates a flared base which is such a feature of the purpose grown japanese trees. Lastly is the positioning of the sacrifice branches, these branches only thicken the portion of the trunk below them so its important for them to be low down the tree to create taper.
To develop a reasonable trunk would take around 10-15 years I would say thats for a really well tapered tree of around 40-60cm. I don;t care about time it passes and I really look forwards to the late winter when I lift my trees and see how the root bases have developed for the season
Craigw

Thanks Craigw, i loved your response, i can smell the soil.
regards, Sunip Wink

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Tony on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:09 am

Hi Will I am in total agreement with you, and that's what I said in my post "I am NOT advocating that to have great bonsai this is the price to pay". I too 'plod' and can happily tell you the Mario Komsta's favorite tree in my garden is the one I created from average material BUT have worked it the longest... NOT the powerful, dynamic, aged deadwood monster most visitors drool over!

BTW what are you doing posting on 5:47am? did you not go to bed? or could you not sleep? Suspect


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‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Peter E. on Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:56 pm

tony wrote:
BTW what are you doing posting on 5:47am? did you not go to bed? or could you not sleep? Suspect






He's supposed to be WORKING !! Very Happy

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Re: Yamadori and Europe

Post  Guest on Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:19 pm

Peter E. wrote:
tony wrote:
BTW what are you doing posting on 5:47am? did you not go to bed? or could you not sleep? Suspect


He's supposed to be WORKING !!

Sleep deprivation and my spirit guide, allow me to multi task in the worthwhile causes of public protection and the IBC. Keeping one eye on the security cameras and one eye on my laptop, is a gift my guide has blessed me with. Marti Feldman, rest in peace.



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re yamadori and europe

Post  john5555leonard on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:21 am

hi,,everybody, will is right about collected material from hedgerows etc, most of the trees i had in the uk were from old neglected gardens , ok i had some yamadori from europe but not so many ,but if anybody is interested i rented a field at my friends nursery in sheffield and planted it up with hundreds of siberian elms and a few other interesting bits. and as far as i know they are still there , been in about ten yrs so will be big. if anybody wants to send me an email i,ll pass on the address , then the rest is up to you. might be worth a look . regards john

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