Grinder or dremel?

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Grinder or dremel?

Post  Pola on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:43 pm

Hi guys!
I need help from you experienced carvers. All my trees are small,and adding some dead wood on some of them would be nice. The problem is i don't know if a dremel would be enough,since i have no experience doing it. Jins,uros and the like...would a dremel be apropiate for this type of work on small trees?
Thanks!

Pola
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Razvan Savin on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:02 pm

Hi Pola!
For small trees (up to 50cm in height) a dremel would suffice, as it is generally smaller than a grinder and you can more easily reach inner spots with it.
The downside is that on bigger trees, while not useless in it's entirely, it will take you a long time to carve the wood. From my experience, a dremel is useful for areas smaller than the palm of your hand. Anything bigger, and you would benefit from a grinder.
But that's just my 2 cents Smile

Best of luck!

Razvan Savin
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Pola on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:18 pm

Thank you Razvan!

Pola
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:24 pm

Pola,

For an alternative to the use of electrical tools, go to our site: www.sidiao.com

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

jrodriguez
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Bruce Winter on Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:18 pm

I was about to replace my old dremel when I found that Black and Decker makes a similar tool with more power at about 1/2 the price. Both on amazon.

Bruce Winter
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Ravi Kiran on Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:01 am

Hi Bruce,

can you pls share the exact page on amazon for the Black & Decker tools. I could not locate the same Sad

Ravi

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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Bruce Winter on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:34 am

Here 'tis Ravi, it seems to be a bit of a sleeper:http://tinyurl.com/6fntob4

Namaste'

Bruce Winter
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  -Brent- on Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:12 am

Gee, I didn't even know Black & Decker made one. Interesting.
Here's the tool on the manufacturer site:
http://www.blackanddecker.com/power-tools/RTX-6.aspx

Looks like these are not available in my country as it's not listed on our local manufacturer website, which is a pity, but I'll enquire nonetheless as it sounds nifty.

Have any of you used one of these?


-Brent-
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Ravi Kiran on Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:58 pm

Thanks Bruce for your reply. Now I guess I'll have to cross the next hurdle of trying to figure if they would ship it to India or if it is available in India Smile

Thanks all the same.

Ravi

Ravi Kiran
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:18 pm

I have (and use) one of those B&D tools. Highly recommended if you do shohin (and slightly larger) bonsai.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  gman on Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:46 pm

Hey Pola,
These tools have their purpose and place on your bench but for a natural looking gin I use a pair of bent pliers and peel the sapwood: crunch, break or chisel the branch to produce splits in the end of the branch(bark has been removed), grab the piece with the pliers and then rotate them down the branch and it will peel away. Hand carving tools can also be used.
Good luck.
Cheers Graham

gman
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:09 pm

gman wrote:Hey Pola,
These tools have their purpose and place on your bench but for a natural looking gin I use a pair of bent pliers and peel the sapwood: crunch, break or chisel the branch to produce splits in the end of the branch(bark has been removed), grab the piece with the pliers and then rotate them down the branch and it will peel away. Hand carving tools can also be used.
Good luck.
Cheers Graham

That gives you a jin or shari that looks as if it broke yesterday. You'd then use the power tool to help give the look of a tree that was damaged centuries ago and is sill valiantly hanging on.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  gman on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:41 pm

JimLewis wrote:
gman wrote:Hey Pola,
These tools have their purpose and place on your bench but for a natural looking gin I use a pair of bent pliers and peel the sapwood: crunch, break or chisel the branch to produce splits in the end of the branch(bark has been removed), grab the piece with the pliers and then rotate them down the branch and it will peel away. Hand carving tools can also be used.
Good luck.
Cheers Graham

That gives you a jin or shari that looks as if it broke yesterday. You'd then use the power tool to help give the look of a tree that was damaged centuries ago and is sill valiantly hanging on.

Hey Jim I beg to disagree, perhaps I didn't elaborate enough in the technique…. sorry for that.........
As I don't just do it once, like snapping off the end like you suggest. I do it numerous/dozens of times depending on the size of the branch or top and from all around it. When doing this type of work I start with the branch/top a lot longer than if I were to carve it….. ……. and when the wood is stripped this way (if you are lucky you get some very long strips), it follows the natural grain of the tree and plane of the grain, around hidden and overgrown knots…....try doing that with a power tool. Then I burn it to remove all the fuzzies then use a brass rotary brush to smooth it out (or various grades of sandpaper)….but I’ve read that sandblasting on this last stage gives you a great finish.
Pola I wasn't looking to hyjack your post - just to show you that there is another way that with patience and time you can achieve the look you want without power tools...........Hope that helps clarify things a little.
I’ve posted a before and after example of a piece of yellow cedar where I used the above technique to expose the inner heartwood….only I didn’t burn it or use any power tools and it was sanded by hand.


gman
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Arno on Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:14 am

I would like to refer back to Pola's original thread, i have a dremel to. and find it dosent work that great. Though ive tried the peal and sand tecnique, I agree with Jim somtimes you need a grinder! I have some thick and super hard wood to carve and have been waiting, so my question is, what kind of grinder and tools do I use?

Arno

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Tools

Post  tuyhoabob on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:14 am

I've used everything from Dremels to chain saws, not one thing fits every occasion in the sport of Bonsai. The Dremel and B&D tools are very nice for small to medium trees and they offer a very large variety of bits, something which can be a pain to find unless you know one of those fancy 'woodworkers' stores. A good friend of mine found one of those tools which has a motor, long flex shaft and the arbor on the end. The nice thing about that was that it had a 1/4' chuck which made more tools available.
I am currently using a Mikita die grinder, I have larger trees and it's a real hog. Two problems with something like that 1. it's big and fast, it will wear you out after a while and demands attention, I've had it twist out of my hand a few times. 2. the tools are hard to find because it only has a 1/8" chuck, i'd love to have a few router bits but they are all 3/16" here.

I'd favor the Dremel because of the ease of purchase, ease of finding tools and repair parts and cost.

Bob

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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  popan vasile on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:12 pm

Hi all

I use the Dremel that I have three years are very pleased he has the speed and force large enough to be able to work and hardwood. I do not want to write do not advertise the brand product. In any case, a DREMEL can not be replaced by any tool, not even the hand, chisels and knives.
It is my opinion.


Vasile

popan vasile
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  JimLewis on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:51 pm

Once again, fit the tool to the tree. BIG trees probably need more than a Dremel -- though they can be useful for finishing work with a wire brush.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Pola on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:18 pm

Thanks for the help guys!
I know about the peeling technique,even tried it on some branches for initial jining,but i want to learn how to make hollows and stuff like that. Don't know how that could be done without some kind of power tool. Anyway,i went and bought a dremel. Now i need to find the right bits. Any suggestions? I know some of the members here sell these. I'll appreciate if anybody points me in the right direction. Thanks again guys!!

Pola
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:32 pm

I suggest you go here. They even have forums where you can discuss issues and problems or needs.

http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Pages/default.aspx

Dremel sells all over the world, BTW and has pages in many different languages.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  littleart-fx on Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:23 pm

Hi! There!

At first,.....understand the tree you work on!
How does it grow an building up it's life lines,.....

In any attempt making dead wood it is done best by hand!

At first you want to go with the flow...or growing angle
Machine's go one way and the cutting tools on it also.
So think!

And yes i do use tools,....but be sure they can destroy....natural feeling.....exibited a lot Shocked

On small tree's a dremmel would do,....proxxon has some more nicer industrial machienes!
A hanging motor with flex end,....as ordered (more torque) is my next goal!
And yes this one goes round left and right......now to find them carving bits witch are going the wrong way around....

And patiance,....do not destroy years of growing,....that is not natuaral!

Placed by a good sole,....little art that is!, grtzz from holland where winter is grey and turtles swim around
outside,.....that shouldn't be this time of year,.....where did you say we missed the spot?

oops sorry none personal ment No hope to enqurage the green spirits,...little art?

grtzz m

littleart-fx
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  -Brent- on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:17 am

I came across "Graham Potter's Guide to Selecting and Using Carving Tools" several days ago, and found it rather interesting and informative.
Below is the link:
http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/carving_tools_guide.php

I struggled initially to understand what, other than the difference in shaft size, distinguishes a larger machine from a smaller machine. After re-reading the article and doing a little web searching I now understand it to be a measure of the ouput power.
A dremel 300 for example, is a 125watt machine, whereas the Makita GD0600 Graham refers to has a power output of around 400watts, meaning (again as I understand it) that it will not bog down as easily under pressure, implying easier cutting/ grinding etc of larger material.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

-Brent-
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  LANCE on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:47 pm

The difference between the Dremel and the Makita grinder is, the Dremel is delicate whilst with a Makita the tree will disappear before your eyes.

LANCE
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  littleart-fx on Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:44 pm

Hi!

Well the up above ain't true!! Evil or Very Mad

Easy as she goes,.....did i metion easy....i'll do it again easy as she goes...

Sounds like music to me,.....! Embarassed

grtzz m

littleart-fx
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

Post  Alain Bertrand on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:26 am

Dremel and makita are not the only choices.

Some straight routers can be removed from their bases to be used as die grinder, they are slightly less practical to use in crowded area but you get much more power for the same price.
Example : Trends T4

Power carver are great too like this proxxon tool. To tell the truth I didn't buy a proxxon but a much cheaper copy from lidl for 1/5 of the price. It is difficult to find any differences, but colors, between proxxon's and lidl's except maybe the quality of the blades which need frequent sharpening. I love this tool. To me (but an experienced joiner may disagree) it is much faster and more precise than handtools, much more precise (no tendancy to rip ) but less powerful than a die grinder. Another great thing with this tool is that its frequency is high enough so that the tree is not moved in its pot like it would happen with a handtool.

Alain Bertrand
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Re: Grinder or dremel?

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