Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 pm

As you can see the tree grew very well this year. Lots of twigs were either removed or shortened. This picture was taken from the back of the tree and all branches growing towards the trunk or front of the tree were removed. All branches and twigs that grew in the direction of the wind wer shortened ready for wiring and bending with the wind.

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:18 pm

All thinned and ready for wiring. Hope to get the chance in the next couple of days.

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  andretoledo on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:12 pm

will baddeley wrote:All thinned and ready for wiring. Hope to get the chance in the next couple of days.

this trunk movement tends to a fukinagashi style, doesn't it?

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:57 am

Will, as you used one of my windswept picture for reference, I’d like to give my comment and I hope you don’t mind.

It’s an ideal material for windswept style and you did a good start with good explanation. You are right, many people get wrong that windswept style should have the tree lean following the wind-blow direction with all branches to go one direction. It’s not the case because wind CAN BLOW any tree in nature, so any bonsai style can be done into windswept..suggesting the wind IS BLOWING…

Of course we can make the bonsai lean to one direction with all one-sided branches, and this might suggest a tree which has been formed by a continuous wind blow, but the wind may not blowing at the moment. They are different in concept and in technique.
I prefer to make a windswept like the Chinese does..depicting an existing wind blowing, because this is much more evocating and requires sufficient skill to do so.. TO CREATE THE MOVEMENT IN SILENCE…

But then when I see your very recent progress, seems it has changed totally and no more suggesting a windswept style… it is rather a slanting style …



Let’s see your previous picture…



This was a good start, but it lacked of natural fact that suggested an existing strong wind blow, it was rather imbalance. It was because you missed the “golden-key” .. what shows the movement is silence is “anti-gravity” of the ramification structure.

Here is my simulation..



It is better in visual balance, but the “anti-gravity” ramification structure suggests the wind blowing movement. This is how you see trees are being blown by wind in comic book, just that simple.
The wind is blowing top down, hits the ground and reflects upward in such power to pull up the branches, so you need to make the upper ramification growing upward in “anti-gravity” manner (because in normal condition, the ramification will not grow this way). Then, on the reverse side, the more you make the drastic turns of the branches, the stronger impact because they show the strong wind that has bent those branches..this is the most important tension. The less such feature, the weaker the wind blow, so you can also create a tender wind blow image using this concept on any style of bonsai.

Windswept bonsai is best displayed without leaves because it’s difficult to logically tell the strong wind blow with non-moving leaves (leaves always grow in balance manner).
But with leaves, you can create a windswept style showing a tree formed by continuous wind, but the wind is not necessary blowing at the moment...




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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:21 am

Normal condition..



Gentle wind blow...



Strong wind...



Formed by continuous wind blow, but the wind is not blowing at the moment...


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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:24 am

Thank you Robert for your time and detailed explanation. Maybe it was a little previous of me to put the pictures up before completing the work but I did say on the last picture that the tree was now ready for wiring in the next couple of days. I personally like to see the trees movement move into the wind and arch round as it adds both tension and some balance too. Hopefully I will start wiring later today. Very Happy

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:26 am

Great Will..I'd love to see and great job !

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:07 am

This is becoming a dramatic tree Will. ThumbsUp I'll be waiting too for the final result.

As for Roberts explanation, I am using the same principle now with my wind swept design. His book got a whole section of the windswept styles discussed in details...I find it reasonable enough to follow.hehehe Razz

There's even an example of a lady there whose skirt was blown by the wind. (blown and blown away are different thing, right? hehehe), and if the wind is strong the skirt will be blown upward ( anti gravity, I assume). Something like a Marilyn Monroe image. very useful infos, it tickles the imagination.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:47 pm

A few hours wiring this morning and heres the result. Top doesn't look quite right at this angle as the picture was taken slightly lower down.

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:49 pm

Better pic of the top albeit rather blurred but its just started raining here.

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:59 pm

Great structure Will, but review again my above comment, It is back to your previous setting..the ramification of the middle branches and the upper crown should flow upward instead of downward...

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  landerloos on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:35 pm

Robert,

one remark, larch branches cascade downwards from nature, so if the wind blows the branches wont move, they are to thick and sturdy.
In my opinion only the twigs would move upwards on a windy day.

Peter

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Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:39 pm

Beat me to it Peter. Smile Larch branches fall naturally Robert. I don't know what you mean by the middle and top branches rising?

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:00 pm

Peter, in bonsai..as other art, especially on windswept, the main vision is to convey our message through the artistic skill expression on the creation, not by giving descriptive explanation, art is about conveying implicit message through explicit form. If that's the case, then how the wind can bend those branches on the reverse side in such dramatic manner ? If you don't bend them, you won't obtain the impact and won't success to create a convincing windswept style bonsai.

For instance, if you want to draw a fast running car, you should draw the car in anti-gravity manner. If you draw the car touching on the road, you cannot convince the viewers that the car is running fast or by putting a text saying this 7 series BMW is very heavy.

LOL, in bonsai, we are not making the miniature of the exact species, but we are resembling the character of certain species... So when you show this bonsai, no one will know it's a larch, or if they know it is, they may not know their branches are that hard that can't be blown by wind. Wind can pull the whole big tree from ground...

Sorry, I just try to give my opinion... Laughing

Will, please read carefully my explanation and see carefully my simulation picture and compare to your original picture. Also my sketches, I am sure you will find what I mean.. Very Happy


Last edited by Robert Steven on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:08 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : mistype)

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:55 pm

Will..another one here for you to get the better feeling.... Very Happy


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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  gman on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:29 pm

Will thanks for posting..... this is a great thread.
Robert, thank you for your inspirational descriptions of the windswept style and the different concepts that can be used to capture that style.
Living on the west coast of Canada (which is subjected to winter storms with very strong and consistent winds between Nov-March) and having predominantly conifers I can understand Will’s idea and theory……. but I can also see that with a few adjustments to the angle of the branches in the middle and upper section it might portray the concept a little more acutely or convincingly.
Cheers Graham

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:52 am

Thanks Graham...and have an enjoyable holidays...

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  GaryWood on Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:18 am

windswept

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:09 pm

Thanks Gary...this exactly corresponds to my explaination. Nature is the best teacher... santa

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:47 am

Had a ten minute fiddle before bed yesterday morning and came up with this.

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:51 am

That's great Will. Next is to grow more twigs flowing upward...
Happy New Year !

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  marcus watts on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:27 am

hi,
i think in the last picture the feeling of strong wind is nearly there but not quite- the fine twigs are a bit muddled - the ones pointing up and those pointing down are not moving together

even if larger branches dont always totally 'follow' the wind i think for the image to be convincing as a bonsai all the fine twigs and small branches need to indicate a wind from the same direction rather than a swirling wind.

the tree is certainly working towards a much better design for the trunk now, it has transformed the material from nothing, you must be very happy

regards Marcus

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:33 am

You are absolutely correct Marcus, that's why I ask him to grow more fine twigs flowing upward to suggest the "anti-balance" wind-blow movement...

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

Post  will baddeley on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:33 am

Robert Steven wrote:You are absolutely correct Marcus, that's why I ask him to grow more fine twigs flowing upward to suggest the "anti-balance" wind-blow movement...

Yes, there is a lot more ramification to build into this tree as yet Marcus and thank you to Robert for the time in explaining this technique. This has to be the most contrived tree I have ever created. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Chinese influence on Forestry commission Larch

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