FORMAL DISPLAY

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Randy_Davis on Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:38 pm

Ok, let's talk balance and harmony.

If I were doing this display I would make some changes to it for sure. First, all three elements when looked at alone are vertical in form so the overall effect of them together should also be vertical in the visual effect on the viewer. Now, on each element I would make the following changes in their placement. The scroll, the first thing I would do is make it vertical it's hanging crooked to my eye. In addition I would hang it higher such that the bottom of the picture on the scroll is just above the tips of the needles of the far left and lower needles of the tree and maybe a tad bit higher if I was there in person to see the results. I would also turn the tree about an 1/8th turn counter clockwise so it could be moved in to the left a bit (a few inches) without having the needles infront of the scroll painting ( I think it would be fine if the needles overlaped the background of the scroll). Finally, I would move the accent plant forward and to the right to make the overall effect of the display vertical. I think that by making those few minor adjustments it would give my eye more balance and harmony.

If I could really have my way I would also have the picture on the scroll higher than it is by 2 or 3 inches but not directly in the center of the scroll. The birds could be in any direction!

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Will Heath on Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:12 pm

Emil Brannstrom wrote:
Will Heath wrote:The Japanese "rules" apply because Mike choose to create a Japanese Formal display, of which the only criteria for judging is the Japanese "rules" that apply to Tokonoma display. The argument that rules should not dictate the display is valid only if you are not attempting a "formal" Japanese display which is bound by tradition.


Will,
The only person doing the judging is the viewer. If the viewer wants to put on the "Japanese glasses" he/she is of course welcome to do so. I choose not to, both out of ignorance and for esthetic reasons. Does it only sound strange and reactionary in my ears if we remove the word "display" in the quote above and put "bonsai" in its place?

Emil,

As always, it is a pleasure debating with you, it is nice to have beliefs tempered in the fires of discussion.

The viewer you mentioned views the whole, even the uneducated viewer can tell the difference between a balanced and unbalanced composition, the viewer can feel at ease or tense, the viewer can like or dislike a piece without ever knowing why. The viewer does not have to know, that is the job of the artist, it is also what determines good art from bad.

The artist controls the viewer, not the other way around.



Will

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  AlainK on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:41 pm

[quote="Will Heath"][quote="Emil Brannstrom"]
Will Heath wrote:
Speaking of which, with all the recent moves away form Japonism in bonsai, I wonder why we haven't seen more modern displays?

Maybe because outside Japan people are still experimenting, looking for criteria, if not "rules", that will enable the least cultivated commoner to feel a universally understandable emotion. so far, most of the attempts I've seen were so "cultural" that they couldn't reach that universal form of understanding. At best, they were awkward, nationalistic (and thus, self-centered) attempts at emcompassing beauty into the boundaries of a shrunken vision of the world.

One of the few examples I really did go for was an exhibition that was including abstract paintings, Walter Pall posted pictures of that one I think. There, the shapes, the colours, the volumes didn't lead the viewer to a pre-determined vision of the world like religious ( Sad ) or sectarian people ( Sad ) want to lure us into.

Yet, i think that displaying an olive tree with a representation of a dove (and not a US-funded missile) could be an interesting way of putting a tree in a local context. But so far, what I've seen is mainly cheesy, corny, kitsch, whatever you call it, displays, showing more what the person is than the tree.

A good thing about "traditional display" is that we don't understand alot about the cultural underlying values that are present: it enables us to have an aesthetic point of view, we don't have to support or contradict the vision of how people should be considered in society (do we really care if a tree is a ninja turtle, a samurai or or ronin ?...)

To me, traditional display is a bit like impressinism: it's a reliable value.

The equivalent of Egon Schiele, Max Ernst or Andy Warhol are yet to be found in the world of bonsai. Is it because the average bonsai grower is a white, upper-middle class bourgeois reproducing a ticky-tacky environment ?

What a Face

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  prestontolbert on Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:51 am

[quote AlainK- The equivalent of Egon Schiele, Max Ernst or Andy Warhol are yet to be found in the world of bonsai. Is it because the average bonsai grower is a white, upper-middle class bourgeois reproducing a ticky-tacky environment ? [/quote]

Sorry, your examples ARE white, upper middle class, and Warhol became famous for reproducing a ticky-tacky environment using ticky-tacky techniques. The difference is that these artists are well known for their shock value and bonsai is an art of subtlety.
-PT


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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Randy_Davis on Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:13 am

prestontolbert wrote:[quote AlainK- The equivalent of Egon Schiele, Max Ernst or Andy Warhol are yet to be found in the world of bonsai. Is it because the average bonsai grower is a white, upper-middle class bourgeois reproducing a ticky-tacky environment ?

Sorry, your examples ARE white, upper middle class, and Warhol became famous for reproducing a ticky-tacky environment using ticky-tacky techniques. The difference is that these artists are well known for their shock value and bonsai is an art of subtlety.
-PT[/quote]

I for one, after having done bonsai for 45 years am ready for some "outside the box" displays and an extension of the craft to something other than the "traditional" concept. In the traditional sense it is "subtlety" that is used to influence the viewer on man's realtionship to nature but in my estimation it could be something as simple as an Ansel Adams picutre that is used in lieu of an Oriential scroll and a modernesqe stand instead of one with an Oriential flavor with a tree done in the "natural" style. One of the problems is that of language, proximity and expectation. In a show environment where it is advertised as a "Bonsai show" just the word Bonsai evolks a certain expectation on the part of the viewer not to mention those in the judges seat where it is natural to use the so called Japanese "rules" to make a judgement one way or another.. I would never encourage the mixing of displays with a different display intent to be placed next to a traditional display as it would disrupt the visual continuity. I would however,be very open to quardening off areas and offering them as another style or "school" of miniturized views of nature as long as it is done tastefully. I would even go so far as to encourage the use of Fanciful displays that are subtlety's of Disney or Dr. Seuss or Si-Fi. As a child having been drug around more than one show I would have enjoyed a respit from "tradition". What I find suffocating the craft is "tradition" rather than an open mind to exploration.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Will Heath on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:15 am

There are some in the West that are pushing the limits and going beyond traditional expectations...














Bonsai by Nick Lenz - hotlinked from his gallery



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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Randy_Davis on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:33 pm

Will Heath wrote:There are some in the West that are pushing the limits and going beyond traditional expectations...

Hi will,

Yes, and thank goodness they exist. A friend of mine Jack Bacus from the St. Louis, MO club makes some whimsical pot's in addition to the traditional designs and it's nice to see something different and thought provoking for a change of pace even though they are often and in the back corner poo-pooed because of the Japanese centric view of "Bonsai" (Theres that language problem again). This kind of problem exists anywhere there is a group of people who's focus is directed narrowly on any particular subject matter (if it doesn't fit the mould of the focus beam then it is often overlooked and shrugged off as an aberation). Personally I would much rather broaden my view of the world for there are many stories that can be subtlety told using the three elements of the traditional display model in a tasteful and thought provoking way. When ever this subject is broached we are often led to "Art" as the model for extension which in and of itself isn't bad, but it often gets confused and muddled in an effort define it in terms that encompass design considerations and the techniques of the craft. An example here might be the best way to better convey my thoughts. AlainK's comment

"Maybe because outside Japan people are still experimenting, looking for criteria, if not "rules", that will enable the least cultivated commoner to feel a universally understandable emotion".

is spot on but I would also add "educational" into the mix as well. In my youth, I was raised in a fruit growing community where orchards of Apricots, Prunes and Cherries were common place. I remember vividly walking through those orchards during the flowering season on my way to school smelling the perfume wafting though the air and seeing the beauty of the flowers and young fruit on the well pruned branches of the trees. Those times brought emotions to me of not only the beauty of nature but the relationship human kind has with nature to mould it, encourage it and take advantage of it for our mutual benefit. Now I know that sounds kind of "cheezy, Corny or Kitsch" to some but when one looks closer there is a compelling story there that utilizes the material and techniques commonly used in our craft. I can imagine using Japanese Apricot (Prunus mume) pruned in the style of trees in an orchard with the typical vase shape to maximize flower and fruit production in rows with straight trunks cut low to encourage multiple branching in a container flowering in all their glory. Tie that with an appropriate picture of the old apricot cutting sheads filled with women laborer's cutting the apricots with their children pulling at the strings of their aprons or the men working in the orchards with their ladders picking the fruit along with an apricot knife instead of an accent plant and you have a compelling story that I think would be universally understood, emotional, and educational. How many of us really know how to correctly prune fruit trees or know or understand how that food that nourishes our bodies and minds gets to our mouth and the human endeavor to get it there. There are a bizzilon storys that can be told using hundreds of subjects and instead we focus our attention on the "traditional". Persoanlly I think that's a waist of the "craft" that we strive to perfect and the "Art" of display that we use to convey that Universal understanding and emotion.

Just another one of my rambelings! Think about it a while.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  AlainK on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:01 pm

I find nick Lenz's work very interesting: I don't like the one with the tank that much, I prefer the other ones, but yes, he's innovating and does have a personal style.

Randy, you are right about Warhol, that was not a very good example I picked up, I can only but agree. Smile

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:49 pm

Alain wrote:

The equivalent of Egon Schiele, Max Ernst or Andy Warhol are yet to be found in the world of bonsai. Is it because the average bonsai grower is a white, upper-middle class bourgeois reproducing a ticky-tacky environment ?
This certainly isn't true in Asia, at least the "white, upper-middle class bourgeois" part.


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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:01 pm

Randy_Davis wrote: I would even go so far as to encourage the use of Fanciful displays that are subtlety's of Disney or Dr. Seuss or Si-Fi. As a child having been drug around more than one show I would have enjoyed a respit from "tradition". What I find suffocating the craft is "tradition" rather than an open mind to exploration.

I raised quite a few eyebrows several years ago when I was in charge of the display for the Bonsai Societies of Florida convention. The convention theme was "Bonsai For Tomorrow." Being near the space center we had a look to space for inspiration. I had organized the display so that as the viewer traversed through it the displays became progressively more modern/non-Asian-traditional including the very last tree. It was was a Willow Leaf Ficus root over "meteorite" flying through space by being visibly suspended in its small room covered in black plastic with low light coming from a changing colored disco spot light and with a smoke generator making fog and new age music in the background. I didn't have the budget to do it with Disney quality, but it was different. The bonsai cognoscenti for the most part didn't like it. Visitors however who knew little about bonsai did.

If some artists want to ape Japan with their display that's fine, but some artists need to push the boundaries and look for innovation in the creation and display of tree art.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Randy_Davis on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:14 pm

AlainK wrote:I find nick Lenz's work very interesting: I don't like the one with the tank that much, I prefer the other ones, but yes, he's innovating and does have a personal style.

Randy, you are right about Warhol, that was not a very good example I picked up, I can only but agree. Smile

Hi Alaink,

I agree with you about Nick's work, the one shown in Will's responce is I believe a representation of "Penelope" and if it referes to the Penelope in Homers Odyssey which I belive it does, it would be very intresting to see how he might display it. Would he choose to focus our attention on her cunning intellegence and wile like a skilled thief, or would he choose to reflect on her skill of weaving cloth during the day only to un-weave the cloth at night to put off making a decision about her suitors. I'm not sure what the genus of tree he used in that composition is but It would be very intresting and to the point if it were something native to Greece or the surrounding area. Actually I believe that it was prestontolbert that made the comment about Warhol and I would agree with him that anything done in that vain might just very well be "ticky-tacky" not to mension difficult to convey in our craft and have any meaning to the casual observer. That doesn't however mean that we shouldn't keep looking for good examples.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Will Heath on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:34 pm

Randy_Davis wrote:

I agree with you about Nick's work, the one shown in Will's responce is I believe a representation of "Penelope" and if it referes to the Penelope in Homers Odyssey which I belive it does, it would be very intresting to see how he might display it. Would he choose to focus our attention on her cunning intellegence and wile like a skilled thief, or would he choose to reflect on her skill of weaving cloth during the day only to un-weave the cloth at night to put off making a decision about her suitors. I'm not sure what the genus of tree he used in that composition is but It would be very intresting and to the point if it were something native to Greece or the surrounding area. Actually I believe that it was prestontolbert that made the comment about Warhol and I would agree with him that anything done in that vain might just very well be "ticky-tacky" not to mension difficult to convey in our craft and have any meaning to the casual observer. That doesn't however mean that we shouldn't keep looking for good examples.

It is indeed Penelope, and I believe he intended the work to portray Penelope's long wait for her husband.

The tree is a Larch.


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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Randy_Davis on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:53 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote: The bonsai cognoscenti for the most part didn't like it. Visitors however who knew little about bonsai did.

If some artists want to ape Japan with their display that's fine, but some artists need to push the boundaries and look for innovation in the creation and display of tree art.

Hi Rob,

First off if your really 19 like your profile says I'm extremely pleased that the younger generation "gets it". Some of us in the older generation find it difficult sometimes to awake from our slumber and comfort of familiarity with tradition. That's not to say that we should abandon it but rather add to it's diversity with the same sense of subtlety and not "shock" value. All to often we forget the purpose of a show and particularly local club shows is to display our work to the uninitiated public to arouse their curiosity and maybe even get some of them to join in the comradery and fun. It's not suprising to me at all that the general public, not hindered by knowledge, liked your display. That in and of itself is assurance that the craft (or art form) will not dwindle into obscurity only patronized by a few but rather grow into something it's originators so long ago did not anticipate.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:59 pm

Randy_Davis wrote:

Hi Rob,

First off if your really 19 like your profile says I'm extremely pleased that the younger generation "gets it". Some of us in the older generation find it difficult sometimes to awake from our slumber and comfort of familiarity with tradition. That's not to say that we should abandon it but rather add to it's diversity with the same sense of subtlety and not "shock" value. All to often we forget the purpose of a show and particularly local club shows is to display our work to the uninitiated public to arouse their curiosity and maybe even get some of them to join in the comradery and fun. It's not suprising to me at all that the general public, not hindered by knowledge, liked your display. That in and of itself is assurance that the craft (or art form) will not dwindle into obscurity only patronized by a few but rather grow into something it's originators so long ago did not anticipate.

Hey Randy, I'm 19 at heart but a geezer in actual age. I haven't bothered to put my real age in there - seems irrelevant to me.

I agree. I frankly have little interest in learning more about traditional Japanese display of bonsai. I am searching for my way, which being an American will probably reflect my culture. In fact lately I've been thinking of what I do as tree art, and not bonsai.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Emil Brannstrom on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:14 pm

Will Heath wrote:The viewer you mentioned views the whole, even the uneducated viewer can tell the difference between a balanced and unbalanced composition, the viewer can feel at ease or tense, the viewer can like or dislike a piece without ever knowing why. The viewer does not have to know, that is the job of the artist, it is also what determines good art from bad.

Will,

Exactly, so why the labels? If even the uneducated viewer is able to do all that (which I agree with), what does it matter if it looks traditional, progressive, Japanese, New Zealand:ish or just like crap? I know you agree with me when I say that the only thing that matters is how good you/I think the bonsai(display) looks, after all, is Japanese crap qualitatively different from US crap? I think not. (I'm not saying the display is crap btw).

Will Heath wrote:The artist controls the viewer, not the other way around.

Nah, the artist controls the artwork, not the person viewing it. The artist doesn't necessarily control the context in which the art is shown, nor can he/she control the social and cultural "luggage" of the viewer. For the same reason I consider the often referred to "Artist's shit" by Piero Manzoni or "Piss Christ" by Andres Serrano to be art, while I don't consider bonsai to be art (as a general principle, but there are exceptions).

Regards
Emil

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Tony on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:02 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
Hey Randy, I'm 19 at heart but a geezer in actual age. I haven't bothered to put my real age in there - seems irrelevant to me.

Old Golfers don't win (it's not an absolute it's a general rule)

Why?

The older golfer can hit a ball as far as the younger guy.

He chips and putts equally well.

And will probably have a better knowledge of the course.

So why does he take that extra stroke that denies him victory?

Experience.

He knows the downside, what happens if it goes wrong, which makes him more cautious.

The young player is either ignorant or reckless to caution.

That is his edge.

It is the same with bonsai.

Knowledge makes us play safe.

The secret is to stay childish Rob bounce

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  greerhw on Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:25 am

mike page wrote:

Display at the Sei Boku Bonsai Kai annual exhibit at the San Mateo Garden Center, April 4/5 in San Mateo, CA.

The bonsai is Japanese Black Pine. The scroll is "3 Geese Flying" by Susanne Barrymore of Santa Barbara, CA. The accent is a New Zealand Iris.

Mike

Sorry, not my style of JBP, I always look for the light switch, just my opinion.

Harry

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Will Heath on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:22 am

Emil Brannstrom wrote:
Will,

Exactly, so why the labels? If even the uneducated viewer is able to do all that (which I agree with), what does it matter if it looks traditional, progressive, Japanese, New Zealand:ish or just like crap? I know you agree with me when I say that the only thing that matters is how good you/I think the bonsai(display) looks, after all, is Japanese crap qualitatively different from US crap? I think not. (I'm not saying the display is crap btw).
Yes, the only true rule in bonsai is that the end result must be visually pleasing, some may also add artistically successful. However, the point here is that Mike decided to do a formal Japanese Tokonoma display, not a free form display and as such, he bound himself by the rules or, shall we say, expectations of that form.

Will Heath wrote:The artist controls the viewer, not the other way around.

Emil Brannstrom wrote:Nah, the artist controls the artwork, not the person viewing it. The artist doesn't necessarily control the context in which the art is shown, nor can he/she control the social and cultural "luggage" of the viewer.

This requires some thought, thank you.



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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:28 pm

Emil Brannstrom wrote:Nah, the artist controls the artwork, not the person viewing it. The artist doesn't necessarily control the context in which the art is shown, nor can he/she control the social and cultural "luggage" of the viewer.

True. For example, when I recently displayed my Snake Root Raft Ficus in a snake pot, a well known bonsai artist and one I highly respect, said to me, that the display represents death, with the rattlesnake pot and the 4 trunks on the raft - with 4 in Japan being "shi", a homonym for death. Frankly I didn't think that at all when I made the composition. I was merely experimenting with form and intentionally trying to break a rule, to see if it would still look good. But other people can use their own referential basis to interpret things the way they see it. That's the beauty of art.


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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  RyanFrye on Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:09 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
True. For example, when I recently displayed my Snake Root Raft Ficus in a snake pot, a well known bonsai artist and one I highly respect, said to me, that the display represents death, with the rattlesnake pot and the 4 trunks on the raft - with 4 in Japan being "shi", a homonym for death. Frankly I didn't think that at all when I made the composition. I was merely experimenting with form and intentionally trying to break a rule, to see if it would still look good. But other people can use their own referential basis to interpret things the way they see it. That's the beauty of art.


It's good to know the story behind the tree. I saw this one at the show this year. It was interesting.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Emil Brannstrom on Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:26 pm

Will Heath wrote:However, the point here is that Mike decided to do a formal Japanese Tokonoma display, not a free form display and as such, he bound himself by the rules or, shall we say, expectations of that form.
Will

Will,

I'd say he created a Bonsai display that you interpreted as traditionally Japanese, and therefore bound him by those rules and your expectations of that form. That's my point. Smile

Regards
Emil

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  AlainK on Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:53 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
This certainly isn't true in Asia, at least the "white, upper-middle class bourgeois" part.

I was referring to the non-Asian bonsai growers.

But anyway, I know I shouldn't have posted in this thread. Suspect

When "modern" forms of display are more than a simple curiosity, but really take on, maybe it it will be worth arguing. So far, such displays are experiments from individuals, whether one likes them or not, but none of them certainly starts a "school", a vision shared by a significant number of people.

It's a pity I can't find the link to that exhibition a few years ago in the US : maybe some of you know what I mean, there was in particular a staghorn (Rhus tphyna) displayed on, what do you call it, these red and white striped cones they used for road works... Gone from the web probably.

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Will Heath on Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:05 am

Emil Brannstrom wrote:

I'd say he created a Bonsai display that you interpreted as traditionally Japanese, and therefore bound him by those rules and your expectations of that form. That's my point. Smile
No, here created a Japanese display (note use of tokonoma, scroll, and three point display) and labeled it a "formal" display, hence it was critiqued as such. Which was my orginal point. tongue



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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  AlainK on Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:26 am

Thank you for reminding us, I too had forgotten the initial discussion. Not having enough time to read carefully all the threads on the various forums I visit, I didn't take the time to think before posting. So let's go back to the point.

I didn't reply about the display at first because first of all, the style of the bonsai itself is not my favourite, but there was also something that I didn't like about the accent plant. Maybe it's not because it is at the back, but at least, I find it much too big for the tree whose shape suggest an old tree. If I follow Emil's reasoning, the grass is bigger than it looks because it is in the distance. Can it be half the height of a literati?

Maybe if the people who set up this display had a bigger background that would have enabled them to place the elements differently, they would have organized the three elements slightly differently...

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

Post  Mark on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:31 am

Mike,
I like the refinement to the apex of your wonderful Literati pine. Both here and your post at AOB, which shows close up detail of the tree, are a pleasure to see. This is an important tree. For me, every time it is exhibited, the utmost thought, respect and care should be given to all choices.
Thanks for the update!

Mark

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Re: FORMAL DISPLAY

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