ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

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ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:31 pm

Hello everyone!

Have anyone of you experienced any "adverse event" when using an anti-desiccant spray?
Specifically on a Pinus Sylvestris sufficient needles turned absolutely black and it was attributed to the anti-transpirant....
Perhaps, wrong use??? scratch

Thank you!


Last edited by my nellie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : modify title)

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ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:02 pm

I have never used anti transpirants on collected material. It is very important for a tree to transpire and if trees are collected properly, with a good amount of root, kept out of full sun, then there should be no need.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:11 pm

This is how the story goes...
I acquired yesterday a Pinus sylvestris, which appears as described above (black needles). The tree is collected and has been trained for some years (don't know exactly). Except this the pine looks very healthy and is lovely.

On my question about the problem, the vendor answered that he has sprayed the tree with anti-desiccant in an effort to provide protection during transportation (which is a week) and this is the very reason for black needles.
He reassured me that within a month the needles will be ok and that there is no health issue with this tree...

Unfortunately I have no other option than hoping he is honest....

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:16 pm

Is this Kaizen we are talking about here? If it is, then Graham knows his stuff and has been exporting for a long time now. All you can do is wait and see.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:18 pm

Unfortunately no...
I have trade in the past with Graham and was a pleasure, but this time is an Italian fellow.... (who I do not know, this is the first transaction)

Thank you anyway, Will!


Last edited by my nellie on Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Need to clarify)

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Update for health issues....

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:28 am

These photos below are presenting the problem that the needles of the pinus are presenting since some time now.
I have already sprayed two times with myclobutanil 4.5% EW (brand name = Systhane) a Group C fungicide mixed with primifos methyl 50% (brand name = Actellic 50 EC) an organophosphate insecticide. But with no apparent improvement.
Will you please anyone exprerienced advise me accordingly.
Thank you!






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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  JimLewis on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:53 pm

I think the only thing I'd spray it with is water -- I'd give it a long, hard spraying into the foliage. I certainly would not add more chemical gunk to the poor plant.

The idea of using an anti-dessicant with a pine strikes me as a bit odd, anyway. Pines evolved needles because they generally lived in dryer habitats than other plants.

I suspect it will be OK in the long run. Your pictures don't seem to show everything turning, and I suspect the water will help.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:58 pm

Hello, Jim!
Let me see if I understand you correctly...
You recommend this hard spraying with water in order to eliminate any possible residue of that anti-transpirant used on the pine by the seller? I mean do you think it's possible that the chemical is not exsiccated yet?
For your accurate information, this browning of needles (which starts at the tip and goes to the base) is present ever since the tree arrived at home. But at the first time I thought it was due to that initial anti-transpirant spray....

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:53 pm

A water spray will do nothing to treat this. This is classic Needle cast Alexandra. You will notice a dead band on the needle, approx half way up. If your country allows its use, get some Copper Fungicide and treat NOW. Then every 4 to 6 weeks and 3 treatments should do it. Needle cast will kill the tree if left untreated. The colour looks pale for a Sylvestris too. Are you feeding it?

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Randy_Davis on Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:21 pm

Here is a good article on Needle cast with pic's

http://www.fs.fed.us/r1-r4/spf/fhp/field_guide/132-135pb.htm

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  JimLewis on Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:59 pm

So, you have an answer from folks who know a lot more about pines than I do.

But to answer your question, chemicals don't all just evaporate away. They often have to be helped. And the answer isn't usually in adding more chemicals.

Water isn't called the "universal solvent" for nothing. When a plant has been dosed with something that is doing it no god, water should always be the first treatment you try.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:19 pm

I have stopped mist spraying or wetting foliage on my trees, and particularly Pines and Juni's, as I feel this can lead to these fungal infections.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Mike Jones on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:35 pm

will baddeley wrote:I have stopped mist spraying or wetting foliage on my trees, and particularly Pines and Juni's, as I feel this can lead to these fungal infections.

That's interesting Will. What made you do this? I mist spray and overhead water other than species in flower and larches. I also mist with water after a repot for 3 weeks a couple or three times a day as (IMHO) it helps the new roots get on and grow without worrying about keeping the top half supplied.

I've never used any chemical for transpiration purposes.

Be very interested to hear what you have to say Will.

Mike

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:49 pm

Will, thank you very much!

will baddeley wrote:... ... You will notice a dead band on the needle, approx half way up.
Yes, exactly so. This band is also shown in the 3rd photo above, isn't it?
... ...The colour looks pale for a Sylvestris too. Are you feeding it?
Yes, I've been told that during winter I'd better use a seaweed based fertilizer and then in spring through automn I use the chemical fertilizer. Do you advise otherwise?
I have stopped mist spraying or wetting foliage on my trees, and particularly Pines and Juni's, as I feel this can lead to these fungal infections.
Some Italian enthusiasts have mentioned the same thing to me, that I should not mist spray the foliage because this favours the powdery mildew developement. In fact this has happened last summer to my fagus as the agricalturalist has told me.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:53 pm

Hello Mike. I must say firstly that this is just my observation and a change of habit. It is interesting to hear from Alexandra that others have drawn the same conclusions. The air and rain are absolutely full of Fungal spores at particular times of year. The only way to control Peach leaf curl, without chemical control, is to protect the tree from rain in May and June.
I have several collected Scots Pines and they have suffered year in, year out with Needlecast. For several years now I have been treating them all with copper fungicide but the fungus comes back every year. Three years ago, I lost one of these Pines and thought I must be doing something wrong.
My daily watering regime was to water the soil, spray the foliage and then go back and water the soil again. This would happen twice in the height of Summer.I got to thinking on this and apart from rain, if I'm mist spraying, the foliage can stay wet for a couple of hours or longer if overcast. Apart from the fact that Fungi like wet conditions, a wet tree is going to act like a trap to the tiny spores. For three years i have stopped overhead watering, and while I haven't eliminated the brown bands, their numbers are greatly reduced. Last year we had a very dry early Summer in Suffolk, with no rain for four months. I only noticed a handful of banded needles on all of my Pines. Now this may be coincidence but I am going to persevere with this method

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Mike Jones on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:55 am

Thank you Will for responding. Makes good sense and one I shall be thinking about long after I move on from this thread. Very interesting indeed, food for thought so to speak.

Mike

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Brett Summers on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:30 am

Hi Will
My understanding is that once a tree has a fungus it has this for life. We can control it but never eradicate it. The only effective fungucides I have found are actually protectants which means they stop the fungus spreading. Such as chlorothalonil and copper fungicides. I have found Kocide Blue Extra (copper fungicide) pretty helpful. Bravo (chlorothalonil) is brilliant but more toxic. Both are recomended for needle cast on Pines.
I am no expert but I think a good plan is 30-1 lime sulfur in mid Winter and Kocide Blue Extra closer to spring. I am told frequent light doses are better than heavy infrequent applications. So maybe try applications of copper fungicide every couple of weeks through the fungus season if it is persistant.

I have found fungus to be a slippery little bugger and just as you think you have worked it out it throws a spanner in the works. A certian Fungus spore is the fastest acelerating thing on earth. Hitting about 60mph in one millionth of a second.
http://vimeo.com/2543823
Again mine is just a feeling but I don't think wetting the foliage increases the chance of infection.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  JimLewis on Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:32 pm

Brett is right. At least in this country, there are no fungicides available to the non-licensed public that will eradicate a fungus, and as I understand it, very few that are available to licensed professionals.

Those named fungicides are useful -- but not perfect -- as a preventative -- one of the very few instances where a pesticide can be used as a preventative measure, but only then if you happen to have applied it within the unpredictable window that opens between application and arrival of the spores, as most of these fungicides have a somewhat limited persistence.

Of those, lime sulfur -- because most of us have it on hand -- is as good as any. The label on the bottle provides the necessary dilution as a fungicide.

Almost ALL of my watering is done via an overhead sprinkler system. I have only 2 pines and am unlikely to get more, but the only fungus I seem to get is a kind of black mold on the trunks (most species) -- and it seems to arrive in our humid climate no matter how one waters. A toothbrush and water gets rid of it as necessary as it seems to have no adverse effects on the trees other than cosmetic effects.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:18 pm

Hello Brett and thanks for your input. I do use Lime sulphur as a late Winter wash on most of my trees. Irradicating Black spot and gall mite on English Elm for that season in particular. My Pines have never looked better for stopping with overhead watering and I will continue to just water the pot.If a tree in a pot is getting sufficient water through the roots, I would be interested to know if their is any benefit to wetting foliage? Particularly Pines that are more droubt tolerant.

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:49 pm

will baddeley wrote: ... ... The colour looks pale for a Sylvestris too. Are you feeding it?
Yes, I do feed the pine but now that you mentioned this Will, I am not sure that the regimen is efficient...
Well, I have been told to use seaweed fertilizer in Autumn and Winter. Then from Spring to Summer I should use the chemical fertilizer.
Do you have a suggestion otherwise?

As far as the fungal infections are concerned I have noticed that almost every search I made on the internet mentioned that humid weather is a beneficial factor for the developement and spread of these diseases. So....

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:17 pm

Hello Alexandra. Varying fertilizers makes sure that trees are recieving a comprehensive list of the minerals or chemicals they need for good health. The two you mention are very good but you could try building up the frequency of your applications.
Wet and humid conditions in and around a tree must have an effect on fungal attacks. As Jim mentioned, he waters overhead and his trunks are covered in fungus. We have humid Summers in the UK but as I dont wet the foliage, branches and trunk, I get nothing other than a small amount of green algae on the north side of the tree.


Last edited by will baddeley on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  my nellie on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:29 pm

Thank you greatly!

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Mike Jones on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:43 pm

Well Will, I think what you say makes great sense. From this year I shall refrain from overhead and I have the solution. I spent most of this morning with my engineering head on and came up with the following protection.

See below for my invention and additional comments after.



I'm actually trying to dry this one out ready for mid April repot. I have slight troubles with it. around 30% of last years growth started off fine but said percentage has gone green on each shaft with yellow tops. Been like it 5-6 months and not got any worse. Was prior to Winter so I may have had either LJ's or worse VW's. I shall fine out soon. Lifted it last week to look but nothing visible.

It is due a major thin out late Summer with ever remaining branch wired for reshaping and then needle reduction over the next three years.



Last edited by Mike Jones on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missed some out ... sigh)

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:13 pm

Top idea Mike. Made me laugh when I first saw it. Good way to find out if it is Leatherjackets is to cover the surface if the soil with a bin liner. Leave it overnight and when you remove in the morning, they will be on the surface. I haven't found they do much damage other than killing off moss though. Have you tried Provado for the Vine Weevil?

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

Post  Mike Jones on Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:21 pm

will baddeley wrote:Top idea Mike. Made me laugh when I first saw it. Good way to find out if it is Leatherjackets is to cover the surface if the soil with a bin liner. Leave it overnight and when you remove in the morning, they will be on the surface. I haven't found they do much damage other than killing off moss though. Have you tried Provado for the Vine Weevil?

PVW2 is what I would use if VW are present. I'm loathe to use it just in case though. Nematodes could be an option I guess as I am still at least 6-8 weeks away from a repot.

Great tip on the LJ's & I'm not going to bull and say yeah-yeah I knew that because I didn't and I thank you. My wife is sat in her chair wondering why the LJ's would be on the surface.

Oddly Crane-fly's were as rare as rocking horse doo last Autumn, we've never known a year with so few. It usually raises a chuckle most nights in bed when I am bobbing around on teh bed trying to shoo the things away.

"NOT a pretty sight!" Says my wife.


Last edited by Mike Jones on Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling!)

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Re: ANTI-TRANSPIRANTS EFFECT on Pinus Sylvestris

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