So just how good is HB-101

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Tony on Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:54 am

mikesmith wrote:Of course if you really want to get to the bottom of this you could set up your own experiment at home.
However, to make this statistically relevant you will need a lot of cheap plant material.
You will need to apply some scientific rigour so that your observations remain unbiased.
You will need to find an objective method of measuring the growth response. In the past this has meant the destruction of the plants as the roots are removed, washed, dried and weighed. However, I suppose you could measure internodal extension as an indicator to root growth.
Not easy but achievable.

Hi Mike thanks for your insightful contribution, HB-101 can be consigned to room 101....

I have received today a 2 liter bottle of Biogold Vital (anyone else used this?)... they claim it is NOT a fertilizer but a growth stimulant... I kinda trust Biogold as a company coz of the good results from their other products... watch this space... I will let you know if there are any improvements.

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So just how good is HB-101

Post  Bob Brunt on Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:16 pm

Hi Tony
Have found a great little shop in Rochdale called GROTEC .It's a Hydroponics supplier with quite a large range of Nutrients and supplements.Have a look you may find something there.

http://www.grotec.co.uk

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Will Heath on Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:51 pm

The following is an excerpt about B-1 products from my "Debunking the Myths of Bonsai" Article:

Miracle potions pop up from time to time shouting out the wonders that can be accomplished with just a few small drops of their B-1 enriched formula. Super-Thrive is the latest of these that I know of and one small whiff is enough to tell you that its main ingredient is indeed B-1. Someone always knows someone else that swears by this elixir of life and beginners are quick to try some of this magical concoction so that they too can have bigger, better, healthier bonsai, just like the pros.

The myth of B-1 spreads like the plague; it seems there is always someone crediting B-1 with reducing transplant shock, stimulating root development, increasing crop yields, and other such claims that sound too good to be true, and are.

I am sorry to say there is little truth in the claims of the advantages B-1 provides. Let us look at what the experts have to say.

Lauren Bonar Swezey in her article, "Does vitamin B1 help transplants take root?" stated that "…University of California research on vegetables failed to prove that B1 reduces transplant shock or stimulates root development. Researchers found "no discernible differences in color or vigor among treatments" when B1 and B1 plus iron, manganese, and zinc were used on peppers, pole beans, squash, sweet corn, tomatoes, and watermelons. Elsewhere, studies on chrysanthemums, citrus, and roses have reached similar conclusions."

Sue McDavid, UCCE / El Dorado County Master Gardener, states that "Using vitamin B1 to prevent transplant shock has shown no benefit whatsoever after multiple experiments, both in a laboratory setting and in the field, on a variety of plant species. Using B1 may make the gardener feel good and certainly the manufacturer, but your plants will be totally indifferent to it."

Looking again to Linda Chalker-Scott, an Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor at the Puyallup Research and Extension Center of Washington State University, she states in her article, "The Myth of Vitamin Stimulants" that "Applying vitamin B-1, or thiamine, to root systems of whole plants does not stimulate root growth. This is a myth that refuses to die, though it has been repeatedly refuted in the scientific literature."

Vitamin B-1, aka thiamine, does not reduce transplant shock or simulate new root growth on plants outside the laboratory.
Healthy plants will synthesize their own thiamine supply.
Healthy soils contain beneficial microbes that synthesize thiamine as well.
It appears B-1 is just another myth that has been debunked in scientific literature by experts in horticulture and biology and yet refuses to die. B-1 or thiamine does not prevent or help transplant shock; it does not encourage root growth, and essentially does absolutely nothing for your plants as they manufacture their own thiamine.

Buying any B-1 based product is the same as throwing you money down a well, in fact in one study it was shown that the plants watered with plain water did better than those watered with B-1.

Based on every single professional horticulturist statements on the subject that I could find, as well as studies from major universities, there is no other logical conclusion other than that using B-1 is ineffective, a waste of time and resources, and produces no results. All claims to the validity of using B-1 or thiamine are false.

The truth is that B-1 has never been shown to be advantageous in reducing transplant shock or stimulating root development and other advantages such as disease resistance are still being studied.






(Note: Sources cited in aherence to commonly accepted practices of citing orginal sources when quoting and references when used, such practices in no way are meant to lead people to any other forums, sites, or other locations other than to the orginal source quoted.)



Will

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:47 pm

A great contribution Will, many thanks. I think we can all put HB101 to bed.

As for Tony's question about Biogold Vital.
Yes, I have tried it out of curiousity. To be honest I can not say I noticed anything remarkable but that does not mean there was no effect. One of its ingredients is a compound called Chitosan, you can find a description of what this is and what it does here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitosan
So this would indicate that it could help with plant health rather than plant growth. I suppose you could conclude that a healthy plant would then grow better and perhaps this is why it claims to be a stimulant. But ask what do they mean by stimulant. What process is being stimulated?

Again there are no scientific studies that I am aware of but there are a number of companies selling Plant Growth Stimulants. The one you will recognise in UK is Maxicrop Seaweed Extract sold in the brown bottle. Maxicrop in the green bottle has nutrient added and is sold as a general fertiliser. Oddly, people then incorrectly assume that it is an organic fertiliser because it contains seaweed extract . Anyway, the analysis of Maxicrop indicates it is a compound of amino acids and phosphates. So how does this stimulate growth?

The answer to this would take quite a long discussion which I can not do here because I am a firm believer in trying to be thorough so that people can come to their own conclusions by assessing the facts for themselves.
I would not wish to add to a common problem in bonsai where half truths and incomplete information then creates a common misconception. I do acknowledge the desire for simplification as a normal response by folks who just want the quick one word or one sentence answer.

So is Biogold Vital any good? The one word answer; maybe.

A cop out I know but if you want more then I would suggest as a start to investigate the conditions for cell division, the function of plant hormones, synthetic hormone compounds and the sites of meristematic tissue.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Klaudia & Martin on Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Hello Will
Thanks a lot for your informations! My first post here was just to inform Tony about what "informations/rumors" I had read in germany. I have never used B-vitamins.....so luckily kept my money.
Kind regards
Martin

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Carolee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:36 am

Jim, please don't capitulate! Shocked I have always admired your stand for science, as well as your direct manner.

Between Will and Mike we have a lot of information. However, when Jim said that none of the big companies never made anything with B-1, I thought of a product I've used for years in my yard. Schulz Starter Plus™ Root Stimulator. The analysis of this product is 5-10-5 which goes with what Rick M. said.

If the goal for the use of this product is the development of roots in collected material, then perhaps the use of a high phosphorous content fert would be of some use e.g. 10-52-10.

It also includes 0.02% Vitamin B-1. This is not an endorsement. I've never used it for bonsai. I just got in the habit twenty-five years ago when planting annuals. I don't even know if it had B-1 in it back then. Smile

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:47 pm

On reflection there may be another explanation for some of the reports that Vitamin B1 affects plant growth.

It might be possible that instead of stimulating growth it has some affect on plant health either as an anti-bacterial or anti-fungal innoculant. Or it may be affecting soil borne organisms in some way so that it allows the plant to take up nutrient more effectively. By improving plant health this would then show as an improvement in plant growth as a secondary reaction and thus explain some of the observations.
Please, this is only a speculation for discussion and has no scientific basis.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Will Heath on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:54 pm

Or maybe the use of a placebo causes the owner to water a little more, feed a little more, or other activities that the plant responds to. Placebos have amazing effects, if you believe they are helping, they do.

If someone sold plain old water as a new and improved super fertilizer, there would be some who would claim remarkable results using it....lol, just look at bottled water and the fortune made with it. Wink

What I want to know is just exactly how superthrive helped to win WWII as claimed one the label...



Will

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:22 am

A placebo works on the patient rather than the doctor but I understand your point.

There is an analysis of HB101 here which still is not very helpful nor does their inaccurate explanation of the plant life processes instil confidence.

Edit: Forgot to add this link passed to me by a bonsai friend: http://www.hb-101.com/shop/information.php?osCsid=2223209eb61725ea9aea54bb92a38f12&info_id=7


Last edited by mikesmith on Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Lotions and potions

Post  jamesransom on Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:06 am

Hi everyone,
Well i set up a trial about 8 years ago using collected hawthorn and yew trees grown for the garden centre trade. I reduced the roots on the yews in relation to the foliage mass to provide stress to the plant and recovery rates. I had an feeling that it was purely down to soil condition and water to gain the best results but needed more proof.
The composts i used was the following, Pure long fiber moss, varmiculite and hortag, and a standard collection mix (using VB1 with this mix)

The outline of the trial was as follows>
  • Collected old hawthorn the recovery of the roots in different growing media as a bove
The yews were root pruned to less than 15% of root to foliage mass and potted in the different mixes it took about two years to get the full results but the best result was the moss grown trees in both cases. They were just potted in moss and watered with no feed, the worst in the trial well have a guess Laughing.

This is just a snippet ot the trial but i would say with the lotions and potions is save your money......... but that is just my oppinion Very Happy

James

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:39 pm

Seems like we are getting a common theme as far as Vit B1 is concerned.
I have tried HB101 but not noticed any unusual growth responses. However, in my bonsai circle there are some folks who have seen some positive results with HB101 but they agree it is difficult to isolate this to the use of the product alone.

Of course this discussion might not necessarily apply to all stimulants which should be considered individually.
The Biogold Vital quoted earlier has an ingredient 'Chitosan' that has been described as having a positive effect in plant health.

The Seaweed Extract stimulant has a different set of ingredients again and may be acting in another way also.

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Vitamin B1 source

Post  graham walker on Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:28 pm

Hi Tony,
A possible source for B1 tablets to dilute would be your local home winemaking shop. It is used as a yeast nutrient to boost yeast activity in winemaking.(Not in commercial red wine though!!!)
This may also be the connection with 'veggiemate' which is possibly yeast based
Regards
Graham

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Sceptisism

Post  Bonsai Kas on Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:42 pm

I hear a lot of arguments that state because one of the big companies doesn’t make the same, or because there is no clear research that proves one way or another, it must be crap. I hear a lot of people badmouthing a product they haven’t used themselves. I also hear the occasional user who does think it helps but isn’t taken seriously.

Don’t be quick to judge, smoking wasn’t officially proven to cause cancer since the 70’s either. As a researcher I see a lot of “contradictory” research just because it’s not done or interpreted properly. I’m quite convinced Naphthaleneacetic acid (NAA) is a very potent additive, just like vitamin B1, humic and fulvic acid are, there is a mountain of research that proves so. I think these work for plants much the same as steroids do for us, biochemically they are pretty comparable in action. Just like with steroids for humans it does have drawbacks and you have to be very careful what you use, when and how much. You can get very muscular very fast, you could also end up with a pair of pretty ladyboobs and tiny nuts if you don’t know when to stop. I think these additives, especially NAA, can be detrimental if used at the wrong time. Most of the inconclusive research didn’t really take into account at which stage of a plants life these substances help or do the opposite and this makes a world of difference.

To me, a chemical engineer working for a big company, the big company argument is frankly quite naive. It’s these same companies that have no problem selling shampoo with pro-retinol or whatever, so the fact they don’t sell it actually means a lot. Usually it’s the big companies who sell snakeoil actually, just look in your wife’s beautybag if you don’t believe me, if that stuff really worked we would all have 20 year old looking girlfriends/wifes now….sadly, most of us don’t. Trust me they would do everything if they find out some little cheap product does the same as their entire spectrum of tricks and treats. Foremost they won’t start selling it themselves because it’s too good, too cheap and they can’t sell all their other (crappy) products anymore. For me the fact that these companies are so secretive about their mixes is a sign, I work in a chemical company and trust me, the things we don’t tell or even patent, those are the things our competitors would kill for to know. Also if a little company can exist for howmany years selling only their “snakeoil” with ridiculous marketing (if you can actually call the label marketing) I do think that apparently some customers keep coming back…

I for once would definitely trust in a little Japanese company before even thinking about bowing down to the big conglomerates who are built on selling sh#@t. I’ve seen how they work upclose and it makes me very cynical to realize I live in a world where what they do, the way they exchange dignity, respect and love for money, actually means success.

All I know is that some local growers of some famous Dutch kind of fast growing plant absolutely swear by Superthrive, they would sell their mother for the last flask if they had to. It nearly doubles their harvest, they even warn not to use it at certain stages because the plants won’t start blooming and just keep growing like crazy. I can assure you, these people aren’t the gullible easy spenders that you would target selling snake oil. I also know some Bonsai growers who swear by it. I do think it probably won’t work on pines or evergreens but only on deciduous plants that have a very distinct seasonal grow cycle because of the much stronger leaf/root back-and-forth interaction, I think this is also one of the reasons why people are so quick to dismiss it.

To conclude this post;
I’ve orderend a little flask of Superthrive and I’m going to order the same amount HB101 too. Luckily I just planted 10 nice beech yearlings on tiles in two neat rows for future Bonsai and clipped them all at the same height. I’ll grow one row as it is and feed the other row one half on superthrive and the other half on HB101, the poor/lucky one in the middle will get both. I’ll show pics in a year 

Bonsai Kas
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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Loke Emil on Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Tony

I trust HB101 to be very effectfull in helping establish healthy roots and supplying nutrients while a plant is recovering from transplant or collection.

I have soaked a small mugo, which suffered from root rot, after extencive root pruning and cleaning: result. The mugo survived and thrived from early on and made good back budding as well.

I also made a small test on sun flowers: 10 plantet as normal; 5 plants were watered in rain water, 5 others were watered from day one with water enriched with hb101. Result. Normal watering and no feeding: plants reached a higt of 50cm and small inferior flowerheads. The 5 others reached a hight of 3m and had very large flowerheads. The respective root systems were very different in size and spread.

I would trust this to help establish a collected tree. I used it on one of my very large elms upon collection. It was too good and the tree was very healthy and vigorous in growth by summer.

This is only my own experiments and results and should only encourage others to carry on making experimenting on less important material...before discarding or applying this product to their own measures.

Regards
/Loke Emil

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HB101 Trial

Post  najoba on Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:13 pm

Hi, I just ordered a bottle of HB101 as a trial, and will post the results later. While I do have some bonsai, I am more interested in improving the immune system of daylilies. I have a lot of hydroponic pots planted with daylily seedlings, which are kept in kiddy wading pools full of water. One of the most critical daylily problems in the low south of the U.S. is how to combat daylily rust. I noticed a few of the seedlings are already getting rust spots. I'm planning on adding the HB101 to selected pots of seedlings and hope I will see some positive results, not only in terms of growth but also in disease-resistance. As soon as I see anything to report (pro or con), I will come back and post results. I understand it is used widely in Japan, and they are such expert gardeners, I'm hopeful this can make a difference.

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