metamorphosis

Always open to a bit of controversy can someone
tell me HOW!!!!! a Shohin can metamorphosis its self into a Chuhin
in a matter of 6 months, :suspect:the reason I ask is that very thing
was witnessed at a show I attended recently ,a Shohin juniper that
had been exhibited and awarded as such at one exhibition found itself being awarded
6 months down the road "best in show" Chuhin at another, now!!!! either that
tree has had one hell of a feeding regime with a plant equivalent anabolic steroid
which should be shared with the bonsai fraternity! or, well make up your own mind

[this should be interesting ] Alex e

Yes, yes.... I am making up my mind!!!

Such kind of upgrading is constantly happening in every social level, so happening in bonsai world looks like being just a minor demerit, dear Alex e.

Alex,
I saw the same thing yesterday, someone else also mentioned it
As Secretary of the British Shohin Assoc, I too would love to hear the answer

graham walker wrote:Alex,
I saw the same thing yesterday, someone else also mentioned it
As Secretary of the British Shohin Assoc, I too would love to hear the answer

dont hold your breath Graham

Maybe the tree ( when judged as Shohin) was further away

will baddeley wrote:Maybe the tree ( when judged as Shohin) was further away

nice one Will never thought of that.are you going to the Bta Sunday?

Alex e

I'm assuming that this thread is tongue-in-cheek rather than being a straight question requiring a straight answer.

If it is, I will shift it to General Discussion/Off-Topic.

If it isn't, I'll provide that answer. It's considerably less "melodramatic" than perhaps expected - to the extent that it might just render the original question meaningless to the point of seeming just plain catty.

fiona wrote:I'm assuming that this thread is tongue-in-cheek rather than being a straight question requiring a straight answer.

If it is, I will shift it to General Discussion/Off-Topic.

If it isn't, I'll provide that answer. It's considerably less "melodramatic" than perhaps expected - to the extent that it might just render the original question meaningless to the point of seeming just plain catty.

"Straight question" it is, "Melodramatic" always luvvy , "catty"only if it affects the "straight question"
Btw hi Fi

Okay.

The tree is in the kifu category which straddles the shohin and chuhin category. It is therefore quite legitimate for it to appear in either. Rather than it having grown in six months (by dubious means or otherwise) please note that the SAME tree won in the SAME category (ie chuhin) at the previous Newstead event two years ago.

As it stands under the rules of the shows it has appeared at, it is quite legitimate for this tree and other kifu like it to appear in either category. The owner may elect which one to show it under, but similarly the show manager may request that a particular tree is put in a particular category.

There is no conspiracy and no deceit. Since the majority of IBC members have no knowledge of the accused tree and in the absence of any back story, can I cordially suggest that it would be really fairly pointless to continue this thread in its present form if indeed at all.

Hi Alex... how come you did not mention this to me on Sunday when we sat together... wow you love to stir it up... for sure a man after my own heart, buts what the agenda here, did you miss out? have you lost money? are you shamed? this is bonsai... is the tree good/great? so WGAF anyway?

Tony

Alex, I am surprised with your knowledge of bonsai you didn,t realise as Fiona said the tree comes under the Kifu category and as for winning at both events,I attended both and in my and the judges opinion was a very worthy winner at both events.
jole
B.B

So what is the difference in size? I know a taller tree can sometimes be considered shohin but what is the size for kifu. While we're at it can someone post all the size names and heights?

Hi Will, look on Morton,s site all the information you need on there.
jole
B.B

Mortens excellent article on "Shohin" bonsai sizes can be found here http://www.shohin-europe.com/articles-size.html
To abstract from this :-

"This is a list of the exhibited sizes that is used by the All Japan Shohin-bonsai Association:
Shohin-bonsai (up to 20 cm / 8 inch high)
Mini (maximum 10cm / 4 inch – the rules of measures are exact and also includes long Jins at Junipers e.g.)
Chuhin (middle size, maximum 45cm / 18 inch)
Kifu (over 20cm, / 8 inch - around 25-35cm / 10-14 inches)
Bunjin / Literati (may be up to 70-80 cm high / 27-32 inches but no exact demands in this group)"

Personally, I am not aware of any such size classifications being defined for shows in the UK though. Some food for thought ?
Mark

Thankyou jole and Mark. Pushing trees out of a display, just because it is slightly over the height classification, seems a bit daft to me. Slightly larger trees can still portray a smaller image?

And now, perhaps we recognize the absurdity of the Western penchant for classifying and pigeonholing everything. Heaven forfend if a tree is a millimeter over the absolute size limit for whatever category.

SILLY!!

Little boys do it . . . but should we?

Indeed. Hear hear, Jim.

To quote the words from the link to Morten's site:

"Basic guidelines of size qualification
It is to mention that the sizes described here are general and basic guidelines, because there are no official and exact classifications regarding sizes. In the case of exhibitions it is the judges and/or exhibition organisers alone who finally select the standards and judges the trees for selection."

Just to confuse things a little further. The Japanese standard for shohin is 8 inches, but in the US it is usually 10 inches, which I guess would include kifu. Some exhibit organizers would exclude a tree that may be 10 inches or less in height, but has a "heavy" look and seems out of place.

Tony wrote:Hi Alex... how come you did not mention this to me on Sunday when we sat together... wow you love to stir it up... for sure a man after my own heart, buts what the agenda here, did you miss out? have you lost money? are you shamed? this is bonsai... is the tree good/great? so WGAF anyway?

Tony

To be honest Tony I don,t GAF! in fact if about half a dozen people hadn,t mentioned it AFTER!! we sat talking I would have been none the wiser!, I didn,t "miss out" ,"lose money" or was "ashamed" I stupidly assumed those whom mentioned it Knew what they were talking about ,my "agenda" was just a genuine question.
it was a brilliant weekend and chuft our club was able to put on a display to much acclaim I hasten to add
as for stirring it up! well if having the minerals [or a pair big enough] to ask the questions others are afraid to then I am guilty BUT! don,t apologise ,btw good talking to you looking forward to the B of B.

Alex e

fiona wrote:Okay.

The tree is in the kifu category which straddles the shohin and chuhin category. It is therefore quite legitimate for it to appear in either. Rather than it having grown in six months (by dubious means or otherwise) please note that the SAME tree won in the SAME category (ie chuhin) at the previous Newstead event two years ago.

As it stands under the rules of the shows it has appeared at, it is quite legitimate for this tree and other kifu like it to appear in either category. The owner may elect which one to show it under, but similarly the show manager may request that a particular tree is put in a particular category.

There is no conspiracy and no deceit. Since the majority of IBC members have no knowledge of the accused tree and in the absence of any back story, can I cordially suggest that it would be really fairly pointless to continue this thread in its present form if indeed at all.

Sorry!!! Fiona you have read something into this that does NOT!exist it was a genuine question of which you
obviously have Knowledge about and now I and others can benefit from,the whole reason for the IBC conception
is it not!," conspiracy" "deceit " :scratch:to imply is a dod harsh and a wee dod offensive!

jole wrote:Alex, I am surprised with your knowledge of bonsai you didn,t realise as Fiona said the tree comes under the Kifu category and as for winning at both events,I attended both and in my and the judges opinion was a very worthy winner at both events.
jole
B.B

Hi Jole, I will take that as a compliment but to assume just because I have some knowledge
means I should know everything about our art is an error and far from the truth, I do what works for me
and if it gives people pleasure then all the better,if not! to quote Tony " WGAF" I have never got involved
with Kifu, Chuhin, Shohin or any other "IN "style bonsai,it doesn,t boil my egg so to speakbut I do appreciate
it, with all due respect I can,t remember doubting you the judges or anyone else's opinion at both events in my thread .
regards Alex e

will baddeley wrote:So what is the difference in size? I know a taller tree can sometimes be considered shohin but what is the size for kifu. While we're at it can someone post all the size names and heights?

There you go!! someone else wants to know exactly what the IBC is for

alex e wrote: Sorry!!! Fiona you have read something into this that does NOT!exist... is it not!," conspiracy" "deceit " :scratch:to imply is a dod harsh and a wee dod offensive!

And now I suspect you have read something into my response which doesn't exist. I had actually assumed the original question was tongue-in-cheek and was surprised to read it wasn't. I am quite happy to accept what you say about your being merely "the messenger" of those who are too cowardly to ask the questions themselves. A simple analysis of the words and tone of their message would easily lead one to assume there was a sense of grievance - especially as it was cross-referenced in another totally unrelated post elsewhere on the forum. If you detect any harshness or offensiveness in my response (which was designed merely to scotch any rumours circulating) then please do feel free to direct that back at those who sit on the sidelines and snipe but who won't put their heads above the parapet. Then you will have completed the communication feedback loop and escaped as being the messenger who didn't get shot.

And now I'm going to put in some of these really stupid smiley things that normally just irritate me but which, on this occasion, should go to show that this response is made in the spirit of fellowship.

BLESS UP!! Just to put some perspective to this thread I am informed
through the Bonsai grapevine of the sad news Ian Stewardson is none too well
I sure you will all share New Dawn Bonsai,s sentiments in wishing him well.

"HASTE YE BACK!" soon & well Alex e