So just how good is HB-101

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So just how good is HB-101

Post  Tony on Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:14 pm

I am investigating this plant nutrient HB-101 from Japan... check it out here:HB-101 , have any members used it? It is VERY expensive but if it helps establish newly collected Yamadori it would be worth it... as for Superthire... I never knew if it worked or not No

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  JimLewis on Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:25 pm

Well, Tony, as they say on this side of the pond, "There ain't no free lunch."

You will note that nowhere in their propaganda is there even a hint at what is in their "stuff." There also is no ingredients label, indicating under the laws of most countries that it is NOT a fertilizer.

There also are testimonials from all those satisfied customers, none of whom seem to have any credentials I would consider as "expert." Gobs of testimonials from people no one knows and who may or may not BE people are another typical mark of a flim-flam.

The flyer also uses todays MOST magic word: "Organic." If it's "organic," it just HAS to be good, doesn't it? They don't say organic what.

Here are the ONLY thing plants need to grow: Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium, Iron, Manganese, Magnesium, Zinc, (and one of two other trace elements whose names have vanished from my mind). They also need: water and sunlight.

Add a little dirt, and plants have everything they need for robust healthy growth.

"Super" mixtures, like Superthrive, HB-101 (and the other "101" products they're so garishly proclaiming on line and in that uniformative PDF file) the "Roots" products, etc. might just as well be hogwash. And, in fact, real hogwash probably would contain enough of the listed ingredients above that it would be beneficial to plants.

I'd save your money and buy some Miracle-Gro. When applied as directed, it has everything your trees need (except the sunlight).

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Klaudia & Martin on Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:36 pm

Hello Tony

The same discussion occured at our german Forum.
In the end the basic question came out...."What helps or not".
Some people have their own "tested"?? ingredients and ready made fertilizers.....they stay with it as they are pleased with it,.....including me.
One member, a chemist, with a long time experience in bonsai, told us about his favourite "roothelper/-builder"...simply vitamin B. Most people were astonished but in the end some used it and they were pleased too...so it seems to work.
Possibly you have heart about that too.

Best regards
Martin

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Tony on Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:30 pm

Klaudia & Martin thanks for your reponse... going way back I remember crushing vitamin B1 tablets into water... but sorta stopped doing it... does anyone know a satifactory way of administrating B1 and in what form?

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Vitamin B1

Post  Ashley on Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:30 am

G'Day Tony,
Thiamine (Vitamin B1), Naphthalene acetic acid (NAA) and Indole acetic acid (IAA) are beneficial following root trauma. These plant hormones stimulate root tip growth and division, we use them commonly for cuttings and for most potted plants after replanting. That is how we stimulate roots to form from a callus in tissue culture. I agree with the above that light, water, N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, B, Fe, Mn, Na etc. are the essentials for photosynthesis- but would add that plants get most of these through fine roots- so if you have traumatised the roots it will help to encourage new root growth. Plus it makes me feel like I am caring for my bonsai.
Downunder you can buy B1, NAA and IAA in solution under the names Auxinone (made by Barmac) or Growth Formula (made by Agricrop). They are cheap (the for advert. for Auxinone says $5 per bowling green). I am sure that there would be something similar available in the UK.

Ashley

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Rick Moquin on Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:51 pm

Tony wrote:Klaudia & Martin thanks for your reponse... going way back I remember crushing vitamin B1 tablets into water... but sorta stopped doing it... does anyone know a satifactory way of administrating B1 and in what form?
Tony,

Perhaps your original question should have been... What are you trying to achieve by using this product? and what results do you expect?

I know I have certain difficulties acquiring products here in Canada in comparison with what is available in the States. Not knowing what is available in the UK I cannot provide an adequate response to your question without knowing what are you trying to achieve.

There is a lot of tongue and cheek going on these days, is this a serious question or just another Superthrive thread?

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:42 pm

There's more scientific literature against using B-1 these days than there is in favor of using it -- and the research that pointed toward using it is quite old. It has been a couple of years since I did a literature search on the topic, and I no longer have access to Lexis-Nexis, but biologist friends and extension people I talk to say there is no new evidence pointing to B-1 being beneficial.

OTOH, it probably doesn't hurt anything, so if you want to spend your money on B-1 and Stuporthrive (and probably these 101 products) have at it. I'll save MY money. Magic exists in fantasy novels; not in the world of horticulture.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Tony on Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:22 pm

Rick Moquin wrote:
There is a lot of tongue and cheek going on these days, is this a serious question or just another Superthrive thread?

Hi Rick, this is an absolute serious thread... reasoning is that collected yamadori from the previous year has suddenly turned up its toes and died... not just in my garden but in Lees also. HB-101 says "helps recovering plants" I am clearly aware of the 'Superthrive" debacle clown does it REALLY work?[i]

I am going to use B1... its cheap... and what harm can it do... I just need to find some

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Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Rick Moquin on Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:33 pm

Tony wrote:
Rick Moquin wrote:
There is a lot of tongue and cheek going on these days, is this a serious question or just another Superthrive thread?

Hi Rick, this is an absolute serious thread... reasoning is that collected yamadori from the previous year has suddenly turned up its toes and died... not just in my garden but in Lees also. HB-101 says "helps recovering plants" I am clearly aware of the 'Superthrive" debacle clown does it REALLY work?[i]

I am going to use B1... its cheap... and what harm can it do... I just need to find some
I never doubted the thread wasn't serious, I just didn't see where you were trying to go with this. B1 is available at any drug store/pharmacy or the "chemist" I believe you folks refer them to. Traces of HB 101 can be found in many applications. However how does it compare to the stuff you get from Japan?

If the goal for the use of this product is the development of roots in collected material, then perhaps the use of a high phosphorous content fert would be of some use e.g. 10-52-10. I do not do yamadori, but all transplanted trees get a dose at 1/2 strength followed by full strength 2 weeks later, and on to a normal feeding schedule thereafter. With this practice I have achieved great success.

Wrt B1 I as well used it in the beginning and saw little to no benefit and discontinued its use.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:54 pm

We all might consider that NONE of the big Agrichemical companies -- Ortho, Dow, Agri-Chem, etc. -- market a B-1 concoction. Neither do they sell magic elixirs like Superthrive. Rest assured when something like S'thrive or Roots, or whatchmacallit 101 hit the market they buy a bottle and hand it over to their chemists. In a week or two they have detailed qualitative and quantitative chemical analyses of these concoctions, and if there was any merit at all in them they'd have a competing product on line immediately. They don't.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Dave Martin on Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:34 pm

Hi Tony,

Am I the only person to respond so far that has actually used HB101?

I have found it to have positive results in my circumstances. I dont know about the testimonials and their claims, but as I say mine have been positive. The rep at the Green club gave me samples including HB 101 granules, which was difficult initially as I dont read Japanese, however the company responded very quickly to provide me instructions. The liquid dosage rate is minscule a 4 drops to 500 ml.

The man to speak to is Peter Warren, who has used it and seen it used extensively.

An Aussie matetold me to mix some Veggiemate in water? for B1 input. Summat you either love or hate, my mate.......

PS Did you visit Titchfield?
Hope to see you at BoBBS

Dave.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  landerloos on Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:00 pm

I did get a 250ml bottle for free from that company, rarely used it, its not true that the label is not telling whats in it.
Mine is labelt with al the plantextrakts that they use in HB 101.
The represantative of HB 101 in Denmark is a japanese lady thet told me, that japanes ladys drink it and even take baths in it (should be good for the skin).
Hb 101 is not a fertilizer but should work like some other hormon based growenhancers.
I will use it as a folliare spray on my pines this year.


Kind regards
Peter

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:09 pm

For some, I guess, bonsai is a belief system. To hell with science. I give up. I surrender. I capitulate.

(But I won't waste MY money.)

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:55 pm

I will join in here to add my two pennorth mainly because I share Jim's exasperation at the lack of horticultural science associated with the discussion.

I am no expert but like most have done a little reading and there are some mixed up concepts here principally with the 3 main growth processes; photosythesis, transpiration and respiration. Understanding these will help us come to our own conclusions not only on HB101 but on many other issues. Unfortunately, there is no shortcut to this but to get the text books out or find someone whose opinion you value.

To greatly over simplify these life processes.
Nutrients are not required for photosynthesis instead it is water, and carbon dioxide which is converted to sugars and oxygen using sunlight as energy.

Respiration is the reverse of this process, releasing the energy from phtotosynthesis to build plant parts; leaves, bark, flowers seeds, roots, whatever. When these plant parts are built, it is here that nutrients are needed.

Transpiration is one system that the plant uses to get the nutrients to the site they are needed. It is associated with the movement of water from roots to leaves with nutrient transported as ions in solution.

later edit; These processes are cyclical and interrelated.

Now back to the question of HB101 effectiveness.
I doubt that any rigorous scientific study has been carried out on the product and therefore claims have to accepted with this in mind.
However, anecdotal evidence need not be dismissed as many discoveries have been found this way.
Also bear in mind that there are areas within plant sciences that are not yet fully understood. So this might give some hope to those who wish to buy some snake oil.

So what do we know here to help make up our minds?
  • Roots require air, water, and nutrients to grow. later edit: and warmth.
    Root growth is also stimulated by plant growth hormones, principally a relationship between auxins and cytokinin.
    There is a symbiotic relationship between roots and mycorrhiza.
    Plant growth is a bio-chemical response to environmental cues.


This last point is noteworthy in that plants will sometimes react to a substance that is very close, chemically, to the material that occurs naturally. This might explain growth responses to unusual products like yeast extract sandwich spreads.

So can HB101 help with any of this?
We are unsure of its ingredients but as I understand there is a small amount of nutrient but not enough to make a big difference in the dilutions it is being applied.
It contains some humate (Google this for an explanation) there are claims that this can help root development. However, humate is already sold in garden centres at a more competive price if you feel the urge to try it.
alternatively, it is produced during the normal decomposition of organic matter so if you have some organic material in your potting compost this should be sufficient.

I suspect the likely reason folks speak of HB101 favourably is because they used it on a sick tree which recovered. But what else did they do at the same time? The likelihood is that they also moved it to shade, improved humidity, cut back some foliage, reduced watering, (later edit: provided bottom heat) and cut back on fertiliser all of which would have had a much bigger impact than a few drops of humate.

Later edit: This is all to stimulate cell division so this is where your thoughts should lie; to provide the physical conditions for root growth.

If you really want to improve root growth then work on the things above.
As Jim has said already there is no magic formula or short cut.
Understand the processes, get the environment right and conduct sound horticultural practices and your trees will thrive.






[list][*]
[list][*]


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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:17 am

Of course if you really want to get to the bottom of this you could set up your own experiment at home.
However, to make this statistically relevant you will need a lot of cheap plant material.
You will need to apply some scientific rigour so that your observations remain unbiased.
You will need to find an objective method of measuring the growth response. In the past this has meant the destruction of the plants as the roots are removed, washed, dried and weighed. However, I suppose you could measure internodal extension as an indicator to root growth.
Not easy but achievable.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Tony on Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:54 am

mikesmith wrote:Of course if you really want to get to the bottom of this you could set up your own experiment at home.
However, to make this statistically relevant you will need a lot of cheap plant material.
You will need to apply some scientific rigour so that your observations remain unbiased.
You will need to find an objective method of measuring the growth response. In the past this has meant the destruction of the plants as the roots are removed, washed, dried and weighed. However, I suppose you could measure internodal extension as an indicator to root growth.
Not easy but achievable.

Hi Mike thanks for your insightful contribution, HB-101 can be consigned to room 101....

I have received today a 2 liter bottle of Biogold Vital (anyone else used this?)... they claim it is NOT a fertilizer but a growth stimulant... I kinda trust Biogold as a company coz of the good results from their other products... watch this space... I will let you know if there are any improvements.

_________________
Tony Tickle.. "that's not your real name is it?"

‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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So just how good is HB-101

Post  Bob Brunt on Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:16 pm

Hi Tony
Have found a great little shop in Rochdale called GROTEC .It's a Hydroponics supplier with quite a large range of Nutrients and supplements.Have a look you may find something there.

http://www.grotec.co.uk

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Will Heath on Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:51 pm

The following is an excerpt about B-1 products from my "Debunking the Myths of Bonsai" Article:

Miracle potions pop up from time to time shouting out the wonders that can be accomplished with just a few small drops of their B-1 enriched formula. Super-Thrive is the latest of these that I know of and one small whiff is enough to tell you that its main ingredient is indeed B-1. Someone always knows someone else that swears by this elixir of life and beginners are quick to try some of this magical concoction so that they too can have bigger, better, healthier bonsai, just like the pros.

The myth of B-1 spreads like the plague; it seems there is always someone crediting B-1 with reducing transplant shock, stimulating root development, increasing crop yields, and other such claims that sound too good to be true, and are.

I am sorry to say there is little truth in the claims of the advantages B-1 provides. Let us look at what the experts have to say.

Lauren Bonar Swezey in her article, "Does vitamin B1 help transplants take root?" stated that "…University of California research on vegetables failed to prove that B1 reduces transplant shock or stimulates root development. Researchers found "no discernible differences in color or vigor among treatments" when B1 and B1 plus iron, manganese, and zinc were used on peppers, pole beans, squash, sweet corn, tomatoes, and watermelons. Elsewhere, studies on chrysanthemums, citrus, and roses have reached similar conclusions."

Sue McDavid, UCCE / El Dorado County Master Gardener, states that "Using vitamin B1 to prevent transplant shock has shown no benefit whatsoever after multiple experiments, both in a laboratory setting and in the field, on a variety of plant species. Using B1 may make the gardener feel good and certainly the manufacturer, but your plants will be totally indifferent to it."

Looking again to Linda Chalker-Scott, an Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor at the Puyallup Research and Extension Center of Washington State University, she states in her article, "The Myth of Vitamin Stimulants" that "Applying vitamin B-1, or thiamine, to root systems of whole plants does not stimulate root growth. This is a myth that refuses to die, though it has been repeatedly refuted in the scientific literature."

Vitamin B-1, aka thiamine, does not reduce transplant shock or simulate new root growth on plants outside the laboratory.
Healthy plants will synthesize their own thiamine supply.
Healthy soils contain beneficial microbes that synthesize thiamine as well.
It appears B-1 is just another myth that has been debunked in scientific literature by experts in horticulture and biology and yet refuses to die. B-1 or thiamine does not prevent or help transplant shock; it does not encourage root growth, and essentially does absolutely nothing for your plants as they manufacture their own thiamine.

Buying any B-1 based product is the same as throwing you money down a well, in fact in one study it was shown that the plants watered with plain water did better than those watered with B-1.

Based on every single professional horticulturist statements on the subject that I could find, as well as studies from major universities, there is no other logical conclusion other than that using B-1 is ineffective, a waste of time and resources, and produces no results. All claims to the validity of using B-1 or thiamine are false.

The truth is that B-1 has never been shown to be advantageous in reducing transplant shock or stimulating root development and other advantages such as disease resistance are still being studied.






(Note: Sources cited in aherence to commonly accepted practices of citing orginal sources when quoting and references when used, such practices in no way are meant to lead people to any other forums, sites, or other locations other than to the orginal source quoted.)



Will

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:47 pm

A great contribution Will, many thanks. I think we can all put HB101 to bed.

As for Tony's question about Biogold Vital.
Yes, I have tried it out of curiousity. To be honest I can not say I noticed anything remarkable but that does not mean there was no effect. One of its ingredients is a compound called Chitosan, you can find a description of what this is and what it does here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitosan
So this would indicate that it could help with plant health rather than plant growth. I suppose you could conclude that a healthy plant would then grow better and perhaps this is why it claims to be a stimulant. But ask what do they mean by stimulant. What process is being stimulated?

Again there are no scientific studies that I am aware of but there are a number of companies selling Plant Growth Stimulants. The one you will recognise in UK is Maxicrop Seaweed Extract sold in the brown bottle. Maxicrop in the green bottle has nutrient added and is sold as a general fertiliser. Oddly, people then incorrectly assume that it is an organic fertiliser because it contains seaweed extract . Anyway, the analysis of Maxicrop indicates it is a compound of amino acids and phosphates. So how does this stimulate growth?

The answer to this would take quite a long discussion which I can not do here because I am a firm believer in trying to be thorough so that people can come to their own conclusions by assessing the facts for themselves.
I would not wish to add to a common problem in bonsai where half truths and incomplete information then creates a common misconception. I do acknowledge the desire for simplification as a normal response by folks who just want the quick one word or one sentence answer.

So is Biogold Vital any good? The one word answer; maybe.

A cop out I know but if you want more then I would suggest as a start to investigate the conditions for cell division, the function of plant hormones, synthetic hormone compounds and the sites of meristematic tissue.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Klaudia & Martin on Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Hello Will
Thanks a lot for your informations! My first post here was just to inform Tony about what "informations/rumors" I had read in germany. I have never used B-vitamins.....so luckily kept my money.
Kind regards
Martin

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Carolee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:36 am

Jim, please don't capitulate! Shocked I have always admired your stand for science, as well as your direct manner.

Between Will and Mike we have a lot of information. However, when Jim said that none of the big companies never made anything with B-1, I thought of a product I've used for years in my yard. Schulz Starter Plus™ Root Stimulator. The analysis of this product is 5-10-5 which goes with what Rick M. said.

If the goal for the use of this product is the development of roots in collected material, then perhaps the use of a high phosphorous content fert would be of some use e.g. 10-52-10.

It also includes 0.02% Vitamin B-1. This is not an endorsement. I've never used it for bonsai. I just got in the habit twenty-five years ago when planting annuals. I don't even know if it had B-1 in it back then. Smile

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:47 pm

On reflection there may be another explanation for some of the reports that Vitamin B1 affects plant growth.

It might be possible that instead of stimulating growth it has some affect on plant health either as an anti-bacterial or anti-fungal innoculant. Or it may be affecting soil borne organisms in some way so that it allows the plant to take up nutrient more effectively. By improving plant health this would then show as an improvement in plant growth as a secondary reaction and thus explain some of the observations.
Please, this is only a speculation for discussion and has no scientific basis.

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  Will Heath on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:54 pm

Or maybe the use of a placebo causes the owner to water a little more, feed a little more, or other activities that the plant responds to. Placebos have amazing effects, if you believe they are helping, they do.

If someone sold plain old water as a new and improved super fertilizer, there would be some who would claim remarkable results using it....lol, just look at bottled water and the fortune made with it. Wink

What I want to know is just exactly how superthrive helped to win WWII as claimed one the label...



Will

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

Post  mikesmith on Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:22 am

A placebo works on the patient rather than the doctor but I understand your point.

There is an analysis of HB101 here which still is not very helpful nor does their inaccurate explanation of the plant life processes instil confidence.

Edit: Forgot to add this link passed to me by a bonsai friend: http://www.hb-101.com/shop/information.php?osCsid=2223209eb61725ea9aea54bb92a38f12&info_id=7


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Lotions and potions

Post  jamesransom on Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:06 am

Hi everyone,
Well i set up a trial about 8 years ago using collected hawthorn and yew trees grown for the garden centre trade. I reduced the roots on the yews in relation to the foliage mass to provide stress to the plant and recovery rates. I had an feeling that it was purely down to soil condition and water to gain the best results but needed more proof.
The composts i used was the following, Pure long fiber moss, varmiculite and hortag, and a standard collection mix (using VB1 with this mix)

The outline of the trial was as follows>
  • Collected old hawthorn the recovery of the roots in different growing media as a bove
The yews were root pruned to less than 15% of root to foliage mass and potted in the different mixes it took about two years to get the full results but the best result was the moss grown trees in both cases. They were just potted in moss and watered with no feed, the worst in the trial well have a guess Laughing.

This is just a snippet ot the trial but i would say with the lotions and potions is save your money......... but that is just my oppinion Very Happy

James

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Re: So just how good is HB-101

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