Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

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Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  CharlieBear on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:37 pm

My formerly baren 3 lower branches of my Elm are now showing new growth on eaxch branch up near the trunk where there was a distinct lack of growth since i got this tree lasty march 2010. Following John's advice I also removed an obtrusive branch of the 'front' of the tree. So..I am so very pleased the suggestions I got from John were beneficial. I previously posted pics of the barren branches and now am sharing the joy that all 3 of my lower branches now show new growth up near the trunk. Woopee!!






Lastly I want to add how wonderfully welcome EVERYONE on this forum has made me feel. Thank you so very MUCH!! It's great to find such an open-minded group of Bonsai enthusiasts. Rolling Eyes

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chinese elm

Post  moyogijohn on Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:31 pm

Charlie,,I AM glad that your new elm is showing you new growth!!! feed it a little to help it push more growth.. did you try the dish soap on the rust?? be careful not to rub off your buds... good job john

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  CharlieBear on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:20 pm

No John..have not yet tried the rust removal tip but it's on the to-do list. It was so very encouraging to see a direct cause and effect from the 'hard trimming.' Looking more closely just now I also see 4 tiny 'budlets' I call them..emerging from the stub of the one branch I did remove...to have my Elm show such resilience and vitality in it's 24/7/365 indoor environment (under 24W - T5 lighting) is very pleasing. Incidently I found on Amazon over 2 Dozen Indoor Bonsai Books that have words 'Indoors' and 'Bonsai' in the main title of the book. Over 2 dozen...wow! I expect to post updates here on my Elm as it continues to grow and affords me a new-found artistic outlet. Professionally I'm a musician and so I am loving this new Bonsai artistic flow of expression. BTW...the lone branch I lopped off has been soaking in water the past 10 days or so. I'm hoping to see some roots form and then I'll be able to grow it and form it from a young tree to a lovely, mature cascading design. Indoors of course.

Contrary to stern authoritarian warnings and sacred Bonsai pontifications, apparently from prominent forum members here, that 'indoor Chinese Elm Bonsai' is a contradiction in terms and an inevitable 'death sentence,' I have located and spoken to reputable Bonsai nurseries (actual Bonsai growers instead of misinformed/misleading Bonsai-forum 'experts') that for years have fully supported the 'far-flung notion' that Chinese Elms can live and thrive year-after-year indoors. Nationally acclaimed Bonsai nurseries like American Bonsai -and- Lou's Bonsai and no lack of online Bonsai publications that verify the unique adaptibility of Chinese Elms to grow indoor -or- outdoors...such as this one...Chinese Elms- Grow them "Indoors or Outdoors" I was harshly scolded very recently in this forum for even whispering the suggestion that maybe, just maybe Chinese Elms can grow and thrive indoors. I openly challenged thier 'gloom and doom' statements such as ("Your Chinese Elm will definitely DIE if kept indoors 24/7/365 - within 2 years- NO exceptions!") because I had good reason to suspect otherwise and had recently spoken to a succesfull Bonsai artist / Bonsai nurseryman who has had and still has indoor Chinese Elms inside his residence 24/7/365 for over 6 years! But..just the same.. I got 'told-off' by some female in this forum that included name-calling and sarcastic insults. I tried to reply but mere minutes after she posted that personal attack on me, a few minutes later, the thread had been locked....LOL!! How pathetically transparent..and rude...and so very revealing. Nonetheless the truth marches on.


Chinese Elms are an EXCELLENT choice for beginners in this Bonsai art form. Yes..they grow and thrive indoors -or- outdoors as they are hardy and very forgiving within reason. Moreover..this fact has never been a 'Bonsai secret' from anyone for decades upon decades. One just needs to do some honest research and employ some open-mindedness. Paradigms are a dangerous and repressive thing. Dispensing and regurgitating such outdated and flat wrong warnings (all indoor Elms die within 2 years!) to beginners as 'sound advice' and as 'Bonsai gospel' is ludicrous at least..and cruel in the extreme. To try to accept that my Chinese Elm had a 'death sentence' made me cry at first. But now I'm back on cloud 99. I passed cloud 9 a ways back!!! Thanks again John for your tips -and- Bonsai encouragement. A good example for others to follow I'd say! Much appreciated. Smile

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  fiona on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:43 pm

Charlie. Perhaps you may not actually realise it, but yet again you are being critical of and disrespectful to members of this forum whose experience is just as lengthy and valid as the experts you cite. We have all come to our opinions through years of hard experience and our advice was given freely and willingly on the basis of that hard knocks exxperience. Yet you chose to fling it back in our faces with very blatant suggestions that we were all wrong. Please do not then expect us not to bite back at you. If you perceive there to have been rudeness and sarcasm in my and others' posts to you, then please do go back and read some of your own comments. To use the old anti-blame culture adage, remember that for every finger of blame you point at us there are three pointing back at you.

I repeat the (very fair) comment I made in my post - if this system works for you then the best of luck to you. You will be one of only a very few who has had that experience. But I have used the word "luck" deliberately as I suspect that is what it will all boil down to. As I suggested in my other post on that thread, you are as likely to get the same if not better result putting your CE on a windowsill. If you opt for that, then again I wish you luck - IMHO it has a greater chance of success.

But if, my friend, it comes to pass that your system does not work, then I hope you will have the good grace to admit you were wrong, and to come back on here and apologise to the people on here who have been the victim of your insistence that it's your way or the wrong way.

I intend to enter into no further dialogue with you on this or any other matter. I thought about sending this as a PM as that way it was not in the public realm. However, since I have just "taken the criticism" from you publicly in your last post, I decided to post this here. I would suggest that if yourself cannot take criticism then two things should happen: first, don't dish it out, and second don't ask us questions if all you want to do is disagree with what comes through in response.

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  DreadyKGB on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:52 pm

Charlie,
This is a website to gain knowledge and seek advice. I think you are moving from that into place of overconfidence. I followed your previous post. You are believed you when you describe the Elms grown at brussels bonsai nursery that have been indoors for 6 years. You are believed you when you say that there is a plethora of books available on indoor bonsai. The question is not whether people actually do grow elms indoors the question was whether your tree would thrive indoors. Ask the owner of Brussells Bonsai nursery how long he has been growing bonsai. The point is that for someone with very little bonsai experience growing indoor bonsai can be very challenging and often result in poor tree health or death. There are a few questions to ask yourself before you decide that you know better than folks who have been working with bonsai for a very long time.

1. How much horticultural experience do I have?
2. How much bonsai experience do I have?
3. Why would I argue with the advice that I have asked for?

I have been growing plants of many varieties indoors for around 10 years and always face difficulties that must be dealt with. I have even killed plants that I have experience growing due to unforseen circumstances. All that I am saying is that just because someone else can do something doesn't mean that anyone can. The advice about keeping your tree outdoors is purely to give you the best chance for success in bonsai not to preach some unfounded gospel.

Bottom line is don't burn your bridges before you've crossed them. You will surely seek more advice on this tree and some of the more experienced folks here will be hard press now to give it with your unfoundedly inflated attitude.

Todd

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  DreadyKGB on Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:46 pm

Also to add another factor, I'm sure that the owner of Brussel's Bonsai nursery has a far more advanced indoor setup than a T-5 grow light in the corner of his apartment. There are many more environmental factors than light that need to be taken into consideration.

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chinese elm in side

Post  moyogijohn on Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:14 pm

CHARLIE,,I have been trying to give my advice simple as it is to help you get the tree budding and cleaning of the trunk..I really do not want to get into a difference of opion,so to speak, of a elm growing inside..really I have never tried it because the trees have to go dorment for a REST in the winter.. I have been to brussels bonsai and you would not belive their green houses.. state of the art set up to say the least... look at your tree the way it came then find my old post of one of mine that has been outside all year.. i am going to post my new one that was a aniversory present .. if i were you i would call brussels ask for DANA then make your decision..bonsai is a great thing to do i love it but there are a lot of people here that will help so take this in away knowing that is what everyone is trying to do.....hope this will help john

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:25 pm

CharlieBear wrote:Contrary to stern authoritarian warnings and sacred Bonsai pontifications, apparently from prominent forum members here, that 'indoor Chinese Elm Bonsai' is a contradiction in terms and an inevitable 'death sentence,' I have located and spoken to reputable Bonsai nurseries (actual Bonsai growers instead of misinformed/misleading Bonsai-forum 'experts') that for years have fully supported the 'far-flung notion' that Chinese Elms can live and thrive year-after-year indoors. Nationally acclaimed Bonsai nurseries like American Bonsai -and- Lou's Bonsai and no lack of online Bonsai publications that verify the unique adaptibility of Chinese Elms to grow indoor -or- outdoors...such as this one...Chinese Elms- Grow them "Indoors or Outdoors" I was harshly scolded very recently in this forum for even whispering the suggestion that maybe, just maybe Chinese Elms can grow and thrive indoors. I openly challenged thier 'gloom and doom' statements such as ("Your Chinese Elm will definitely DIE if kept indoors 24/7/365 - within 2 years- NO exceptions!") because I had good reason to suspect otherwise and had recently spoken to a succesfull Bonsai artist / Bonsai nurseryman who has had and still has indoor Chinese Elms inside his residence 24/7/365 for over 6 years! But..just the same.. I got 'told-off' by some female in this forum that included name-calling and sarcastic insults. I tried to reply but mere minutes after she posted that personal attack on me, a few minutes later, the thread had been locked....LOL!! How pathetically transparent..and rude...and so very revealing. Nonetheless the truth marches on.


Chinese Elms are an EXCELLENT choice for beginners in this Bonsai art form. Yes..they grow and thrive indoors -or- outdoors as they are hardy and very forgiving within reason. Moreover..this fact has never been a 'Bonsai secret' from anyone for decades upon decades. One just needs to do some honest research and employ some open-mindedness. Paradigms are a dangerous and repressive thing. Dispensing and regurgitating such outdated and flat wrong warnings (all indoor Elms die within 2 years!) to beginners as 'sound advice' and as 'Bonsai gospel' is ludicrous at least..and cruel in the extreme. To try to accept that my Chinese Elm had a 'death sentence' made me cry at first. But now I'm back on cloud 99. I passed cloud 9 a ways back!!! Thanks again John for your tips -and- Bonsai encouragement. A good example for others to follow I'd say! Much appreciated. Smile

WOW! This is absolutely the biggest and boldest attempt of forum suicide by a novice I think I've ever read in an Internet forum. To attempt to provide a SMACK-DOWN against those who clearly have more knowledge and experience than the novice, does little more than convince the wise and learned "professors" of the forum to shut down the flow of information in the direction of the novice.

As a person who used to live to eat, I would equate Charlie's comments to telling a master chef that he is a lousy cook... before ordering your own meal! And, then complaining, because, the chef refuses to serve you! (or worse!)

Stones... REALLY BIG STONES! Only problem, with stones that big, you usually end up choking on them when you try to breath! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Jay


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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  DreadyKGB on Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:31 am

Jay,
I had thought of it like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Many people do it and they turn out fine, some might even advise it for better peripheral vision.

Should you do it? Probably not.

Should you do it after looking at a motorcycle for a few months and then finally riding around the block once? Definitely not, even though some experienced riders have been doing it for years without a problem.

Anyway just my thoughts.

Todd

P.S. Louis Bonsai was stealing images for his site from Walter Pall, if that says anything about the quality of his bonsai I don't know but it says a lot about his ethics.


Last edited by DreadyKGB on Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition)

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  my nellie on Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:10 am

Either you take an advice or you leave it!
Take the experts' advice, Charlie! They know what they are saying because they have the experience!
This is said by a novice, too.

But, before everything else, you ought to be at least polite and prove your civility..., because we all are guests in this (and every other) Forum!
One never insults the host boldly, not out of providence for receiving help in the future, but because this is civilized manners...

I'm writting with every goowill and with not the least intention to attack or offend you...

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Bye bye Charliebear!

Post  Kev Bailey on Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:13 pm

I'm glad that many of you seem to agree with us moderators, as I have banned him. As I said to the team, if people can't accept that basic civility and politeness is a necessary part of this forum, I'm not minded to help them. When they start generating multiple identities and posting from many different IP addresses, I get suspicious.


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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  stavros on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:36 pm

Charlie's behaviour was obvious from his previous posts. It is very annoying to see that while advice was given generously, he was disrespectful and he was challenging every piece of advice he would get.

I think that the moderators have done a very good job; all this went too far.


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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  fiona on Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:48 pm

Thanks Stavros and all the others who have lent support on the open forum and in PMs. The irony of the situation is that I personally have gained some new bonsai knowledge from all the advice given by Iris and others and I intend to heed it with the Chinese Elms I have got in the garden waiting to be turned into a landscape.

But now is the right time to draw a line under the whole sorry affair that is this and the other related thread, I think.

There we go.
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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  pootsie on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:14 pm

Having been a bonsai forum mod for a time myself, I fully support the mods here swinging the banhammer when they need to. ThumbsUp

Thank you mods for putting up with us forum members!

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  stavros on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Being a mod myself at the greek speaking bonsai forum www.mybonsai.gr, i can fully understand how difficult it is to keep everything under control sometimes. Banning someone is not the nicest thing a mod is forced to do but at times it's the only thing to be done.

I would like to take this opportunity and thank not just the mods who do their job nicely, but also all the very experienced members (professionals included) who share their knowledge, passion, experiences so generously with the rest of us. I just wish the same could be applied in other things in life.

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

Post  JimLewis on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:34 pm

I think on that pleasant note, I'm gonna lock this thread before we all just start babbling.

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Re: Chinese Elm shows new foliage after "hard trimming"

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