kiku id please

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kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:28 pm

I'm hoping someone can help me id this little chrysanthemum (kiku). I brought it home from Japan almost 25 years ago. It's the dwarf with the small lavender flowers with a yellow center that you see in the kusamono and accent plantings used in autumn bonsai displays. For me on the Gulf Coast it blooms off and on all the time. Even in the ground it only gets about 6 inches tall, but it's even smaller when potbound. Two Japanese names come to mind, noko-giku and kodaruma-giku, but it's been a long time and the old brain isn't what it used to be. It may be Aster tinctoria or A. trinevius - and then again I may be way off. I have no idea if it's an actual species or just a variety selected for kusamono because of it's small size

Thanks! Russell




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Re: kiku id please

Post  Chris Cochrane on Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:35 pm

Hi Russell... Dave Brunner is the most likely source for targeting this plant's identification on IBC. Dale Cochoy has some particular experience with mum bonsai, too. Even Dave might need to see the flower in full bloom. You can "private message" (PM) him on IBC.

New York bonsai artist John Capobianco should be able to help. See Capobianco Creations.

The wondrous bonsai text Art of the Chrysanthemum (1965) by Tameji Nakajima with collaboration of H. Carl Young is worth reading for its description of characteristics (including distinctions Japanese & American NCS classification systems at the time of publication). It won't help on naming this plant, however. It is a GREAT book.

Dave Garvin initiated the annual October (now known as "Mum'tober") displays at the (USA) National Bonsai and Penjing Museum before he moved to the Midwest. Dave is very knowledgeable re' miniature mums.

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Re: kiku id please

Post  David Brunner on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:22 pm

Hello Russell – I am afraid Chris has more confidence in my taxonomic prowess than is warranted. I can’t be of any significant help here, except to say that from the appearance of the foliage and flower buds this does seem to be Aster ageratoides as you guessed (Aster trinervius is an outdated synonym.) A. ageratoides is Asian in origin and commonly used in Japanese horticulture, so you could be right on the money. According to the Missouri Botanical Garden data base, the Japanese common name is Chosen-nokongiku.

I hope this helps lead you in the right direction,
David B.

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Chris Cochrane on Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:24 pm

Thanks, Dave... You follow the horticulture & give us something to google-search-- chosen-nokongiku.

The first google hit was amazing in relating mums to "flower language" [linked] of courtly elegance & romance.

A second website shares a student's appreciation of her teacher Mizue Yamada's haiku poems, which includes:
山寺は山形市内野紺菊
Yamadera wa yamagata shinai nokongiku

Purple wild mums
the Yamadera Temple is located
within the city limits of Yamagata City

________________________________________
Yamadera (山寺) literal meaning is: Mountain Temple; Yamagata-shi (山形市) Yamagata-city; nai (内) within; nokongiku (野紺菊) wild chrysanthemums or asters
________________________________________
... The "Yamadera" in this poem is the Risshakuji Temple in the famous Basho’s haiku, "Shizukasaya iwa ni shimi iru semi nokoe” (In tranquility, singing of cicadas permeates in the rocks). As the sign at the train station mentions the address of the temple, the author of this poem had a slight surprise in learning that Yamadera is situated within the city limits of Yamagata City. Oh no. The author, who was born in Sendai, would have known this all too well, but she might have wanted to tell the readers not familiar with the area.
Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Russell.

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:10 pm

Chris and Dave,

THANKS SO MUCH!!!!!

Glad to know I was on the right track with nokon-giku, and the Latin name too. I never heard the "Chosen" part, but we weren't allowed to use that word. I figured this was a wild form and not a garden "kiku matsuri" or bonsai variety, and only saw it used for kusamono. But you have to remember that I was a country boy! OK, so that means that kodaruma-giku is Aster nipponicum and isou-giku is pacificum. Scratch that off my list.

Great little plant, I appreciate ALL of the info!!

R


Last edited by Russell Coker on Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added thought)

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:38 pm

And here's the flower...



It will show more lavender color in cooler weather.

R

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Re: kiku id please

Post  William N. Valavanis on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:24 pm

Russell:

Nice "chrysanthemum". Looks like it will make a great kusamono.

Chris, you are way off.... the Chrysanthemums trained for bonsai are totally different and form woody trunks. In the very early 1970s I studied with Tameji Nakajima and introduced all his new hybrid cultivars to the US. Some are now standard cultivars available at specialized Chrysanthemum nurseries, in California.

Russell: the plant you have is a herbaceous, and I doubt that it makes a woody trunk, does it?

In addition to the Nakajima hybrid cultivars which are widely trained for bonsai there are two others I'm familiar with: Chrysanthemum pacificium, I believe introduced to the US by Dr. Creech. It's used as a ground cover and has variegated foliage and small yellow flowers. Its is very commonly used for kusamono and accessories in Japan, not necessarily for the flowers, but for the beautiful foliage.

The other Chrysanthemum "Nippon Daisy" Chrysanthemum nipponicum, also called Montak Daisy is sometimes used for bonsai in Japan. The foliage is much larger, aromatic and grown for large trunk developments. Usually the bonsai seen in Japanese shows are multi trunk, but it can be trained as a single trunk.

Let me know if you would like to see images, I have several.

Also, Russell, it's important to realize that taxonomists have had a field day changing the classification of "Chrysanthemums". They are not even classified that way (or at least they were).

Good luck with your plant. It's important to enjoy your plant, no matter what the name is, that's the beauty of bonsai.

Bill

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Re: kiku id please

Post  David Brunner on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:19 pm

Hello Bill – Ah yes, the long and winding road of the genus Chrysanthemum and its nomenclature.

First, I should point out that I don’t think that the plant Russell has shown us is a Chrysanthemum but is actually in the genus Aster.

Second, just so you may be able to rest easier, the plants most commonly known as chrysanthemums in horticulture have had a long and tortuous history of taxonomic name changes; however, in 1999 the Spermatophyta Committee for the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature nominated and the General Committee approved that the horticultural plants known as chrysanthemum and characterized through the species Chrysanthemum indicum should be rightly referred to by botanists as Chrysanthemum thus relegating all those other generic names like Dendranthema et alia to the rubbish heap (at least for the species in question.)

I won’t give a full accounting of the taxonomic history because it’s long, arduous, technical and obtuse – but it’s a fun one to trace. Such are the vicissitudes of taxonomy, a profession to which I was once allied.

Thanks for the fun!
David B.

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:52 am

Thanks so much Bill and Dave!

I knew that linking this particular weed/mum to chyrsanthemum bonsai was the wrong direction. Yes, this is a non-woody little plant. And Lord knows that lately chrysanthemums and asters have become taxanomical quicksand!

I don't have any pacificum now, but a friend does. I love the little yellow button flowers. Actually, the foliage isn't variegated. The fleshy leaves are silver/green on top and pure white below. I was told that pacificum and nipponicum were seaside plants. I have seen pacificum at garden centers, but not lately, and nipponicum usually shows up in the fall at Lowes of all places.

Bill, I'd love to see your images. I thought you had a pretty nipponicum at one time.

R

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Re: kiku id please

Post  William N. Valavanis on Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:31 am

Here is an old image of my Chrysanthemum nipponicum. It was started from a cutting by Toshiji Yoshimura (Yuji's father) about 70 years ago. Nothing lasts forever and now there is only one trunk developing into a new design.

Originally when I got this bonsai from Yuji it had three trunks. I removed one to make it a twin trunk bonsai. The removed trunk was trained into a cascade bonsai (quite nice) then I split that one into two trunks and now have two cascade style bonsai with a pedigree.

The second image is Chrysanthemum pacificum, Isogiku I think in Japanese. This photo was taken in November at a Taikan ten Bonsai Exhibition.

Enjoy!

PS: Russel, do you have Chrysanthemum nipponicum?




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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:56 pm

Wow, Bill, that nipponicum is AWESOME!!! I knew they developed a woody trunk, but never dreamed they got that big - or lived that long. And what a wonderful story, you've got a real treasure there! Once they get that woody do they bud back easily?

I never saw anything like that in Kanuma, we just used it as an autumn wildflower. Like I mentioned before, seems like I was told that it is a seaside mum. I wonder if they get that big in the wild, and are they collected for bonsai? As much as the Japanese love their autumn wildflowers, especially anything "kiku" related, I would think they would be extremely popular for fall displays.

And yes, pacificum is "isogiku".

I don't have nipponicum now. I'll pm you.

R

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Re: kiku id please

Post  jrodriguez on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:25 pm

Russel,

There is a herbaceous shrub in the Chrysanthemum family called Crossostephium Chinensis (靳艾) that was formerly used for bonsai in Taiwan. Also known as Worm-wood, it is a fast grower and develops a fat trunk easily. Unfortunately, it is a pain in the butt to handle as a bonsai and requires a lot of pinching and cleaning up to maintain its health. Below and for your review, a display by Mr. Yang Chun-Cheng (楊春成) featuring the tree under question. On the left, a small Premna Microphylla in the informal upight style. In center accent plantings using Selaginella erythropus 'Sanguinea'. On the right, a Crossostephium Chinensis in the semi cascade style. Both trees have been developed from cutting in a span of 3 to 5 years. The tree on the right won a top award in the 2000 Taiwan Bonsai Creators Association, as well as in the 4th Asia Pacific Bonsai and Suiseki Exhibition in Taipei.



Send me a PM if you wish to have a cutting of this species.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:15 am

Jose Luis,

3 to 5 years from cuttings????? Are you kidding me????

That's shocking! Beautiful, both of them. I googled the Crossostephium and it looks really familiar, very much like Santolina that's used here on the coast and Florida as a beach landscape plant.

I'll pm you.

Russell

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Re: kiku id please

Post  NeilDellinger on Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:13 pm

Russell,
This is a fun & informative thread. Not too long ago I purchased the Art of the Chrysanthemum book. Although I have not yet taken on any projects I am eager to start some next year.

Bill,
Both plants you posted are beautiful. I remember seeing the larger one at the Chicagoi Botanical Garden a few years ago. You displayed it with an informative bit of literature. I think that was the year a grape vine won the show. I personally preferred yours to the grape vine Very Happy

Do you do anything special for protection during your cold winter? Even in my warmer climate in Tulsa most Chrysanthemums die back to the ground, woody parts and all.

Thanks guys for the informative posts!
Neil

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Dale Cochoy on Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:11 pm

Russell, have youb tried to ID your mum through KINGS MUMS site or contacting them. That might be a good source?
https://www.kingsmums.com/

Bill, I bought a fairly good-sized Montak Daisy from a vendor at your May show a few years back. He had grown it in the ground for years. It was from a cutting you sold him.. It blooms OK each fall and all cuttings I've taken live but it sure seems to rot away the trunk quite a bit every year. Was this normal for you?

Dale

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Re: kiku id please

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:30 am

Hi Dale.

Thanks for the link, it looks really interesting. I hope to take some time this evening and really check it out. As for my plant I'm comfortable with David's identification, especially since he confirmed that I was on the right track to begin with! I learned the Japanese names of so many plants (they didn't care what the Latin name was), and have tried my best to keep up with them for the last 20+ years. While most have been fairly easy to find the Latin name, others like this one have been more tricky.

I noticed that Lowe's was starting to get in their fall perennials, grasses and sedum and such. Hopefully some nipponicums and pacificums will show up too.

Neil, thanks for the heads up about the chrysanthemum book, I'll have to get a copy.

R


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Re: kiku id please

Post  Chris Cochrane on Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:03 pm

Hi Russell, Neil et al. ... My thought is clearly aligned with Neil's in this being a wonderful book-- especially for Chrysanthemum bonsai but additionally for introducing flower identification applicable to all chrysanthemums. The Japanese system is noted as issued from the national Shinjuku Center Gardens-- I imagine that is the Shinjuku Gyoen National Garden (see LINK) which is a former daimyo & Imperial garden (and botanical center) which you can visit in Tokyo. Both the Japanese & American classification systems help identify blooms especially well, though illustration helps beyond the text in the book. The simplest illustration on the National Chrysanthemum Society website is a good starting point:
NCS Classifications, Black & White illustration (see LINK)

Tameji Nakajima notes further distinctions in his book & much more precise distinctions are noted on the National Chrysanthemum Society website.

For horticultural precision, Dave Brunner is THE Master, for me. I appreciate Dave for wit & humility as well as skill & generosity in sharing.

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