pots by Mateusz Grobelny

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Andrija Zokic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:03 pm

Attila Soos wrote:
This clearly does not apply to a traditional bonsai pot, which cannot draw much attention. So, the term harmony is used incorrectly, when referring to bonsai pots. I would rather call it "harmony with a lot of strings attached", or "harmony combined with unconditional surrender".
Maybe this new pots are bringing so many attention only because thay are something new.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:29 pm

Andrija Zokic wrote:
Maybe this new pots are bringing so many attention only because thay are something new.

That is one reason, and the other is that these pots bring a new abstract element into the picture. Our eyes are not supposed to stay on the tree all the time, but we can linger on looking at the individual features of the pot as well. These pots can evoke a strong reaction from the viewer. This is unheard of, in bonsai.

This is why I suggest that we don't call it bonsai at all, or the term "bonsai" needs to evolve into something that can incorporate new meanings. I suspect that the latter is going to happen.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:31 pm

Attila Soos wrote:
Morten Albek wrote:...harmony with the tree is the main focus.

We have to be careful using the definition of "harmony" with the traditional bonsai pots. Harmony means "joint agreement", "to fit together". The term originated in music, and was expanded to arts in general. Harmony does not exlude drawing attention. Two objects, as well as two sounds, can draw equal attention, and be in harmony at the same time.

This clearly does not apply to a traditional bonsai pot, which cannot draw much attention. So, the term harmony is used incorrectly, when referring to bonsai pots. I would rather call it "harmony with a lot of strings attached", or "harmony combined with unconditional surrender".

Attila

I do not agree with this. I simply think harmony of the overall image of the bonsai is very important. That means that pot and tree must "be one" so to speak.
I think we can discuss this endlessly, and in the end it all comes down to how we as individuals feels the expression of the bonsai.

Regards
Morten

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:49 pm

Morten Albek wrote: I do not agree with this. I simply think harmony of the overall image of the bonsai is very important. That means that pot and tree must "be one" so to speak.
I think we can discuss this endlessly, and in the end it all comes down to how we as individuals feels the expression of the bonsai.

Regards
Morten

Morten, there is no need for endless discussion. We agree that harmony is very important in bonsai.
What I pointed out is that your definition of harmony doesn't necessarily coincide with the way another artist would define harmony. When you say " pot and tree must be one", you imply that the tree is the dominant feature, and the pot should not attract too much attention.
But in other art forms, there can be perfect harmony between two elements, without one clearly dominating the other. In general, harmony can be achieved in many different ways. An artist with no bonsai training would not necessarily create harmony the same way a bonsai master does. There is no right way or wrong way to create harmony, there are many different ways. I hope you understand that.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:25 pm

Morten, there is no need for endless discussion. We agree that harmony is very important in bonsai.
What I pointed out is that your definition of harmony doesn't necessarily coincide with the way another artist would define harmony. When you say " pot and tree must be one", you imply that the tree is the dominant feature, and the pot should not attract too much attention.
But in other art forms, there can be perfect harmony between two elements, without one clearly dominating the other. In general, harmony can be achieved in many different ways. An artist with no bonsai training would not necessarily create harmony the same way a bonsai master does. There is no right way or wrong way to create harmony, there are many different ways. I hope you understand that.

I understand your point Attila. Thank you.
But I try hard to do bonsai with the Japanese basis. That demands a lot of skills and understanding that is true to the bonsai art origin.
I generally see no good comparisons with other art forms. Bonsai is an exclusive art form with a great tradition and history I like to work with. That's my personal goal, and I do think there are way to many ways to go wrong when comparing with other art forms because bonsai is not comparable in many terms (that's why they are other art forms, and bonsai is bonsai).
Very Happy
Regards Morten

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:32 pm

Morten Albek wrote: I try hard to do bonsai with the Japanese basis. That demands a lot of skills and understanding that is true to the bonsai art origin.
I generally see no good comparisons with other art forms. Bonsai is an exclusive art form with a great tradition and history I like to work with. That's my personal goal, and I do think there are way to many ways to go wrong when comparing with other art forms because bonsai is not comparable in many terms (that's why they are other art forms, and bonsai is bonsai).
Very Happy
Regards Morten

Morten,
I always admired your approach to bonsai, and I respect your decision.

Best regards,
Attila

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  tim stubbs on Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:38 pm

Morten Albek wrote:
Attila Soos wrote:
Morten Albek wrote:...harmony with the tree is the main focus.

We have to be careful using the definition of "harmony" with the traditional bonsai pots. Harmony means "joint agreement", "to fit together". The term originated in music, and was expanded to arts in general. Harmony does not exlude drawing attention. Two objects, as well as two sounds, can draw equal attention, and be in harmony at the same time.

This clearly does not apply to a traditional bonsai pot, which cannot draw much attention. So, the term harmony is used incorrectly, when referring to bonsai pots. I would rather call it "harmony with a lot of strings attached", or "harmony combined with unconditional surrender".

Attila

I do not agree with this. I simply think harmony of the overall image of the bonsai is very important. That means that pot and tree must "be one" so to speak.
I think we can discuss this endlessly, and in the end it all comes down to how we as individuals feels the expression of the bonsai.

Regards
Morten

surely when you say "That means that pot and tree must "be one"" this is an example of that , the tree and pot are one

take a look at http://www.bonsai-fachforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23787&p=270623#p270623 , this is it in real life

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Andrija Zokic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:42 pm

Arter wrote:... and I strongly believe that what really matters in art, are the basics and the natural evolution of art.

I agree. What attracts me in bonsai is my feeling that artist is explorer, but what repels me is when I feel that people are working according to well established rules and subordinate to it. Sometime I see some people doing on none so well material (for my taste) but their exploring spirit attracts my attention. Why is attracting attention so bad? It is bad only if it is for itself sake.
Also I don’t understand why some people are mentioning that respect toward tradition is so important. Does it mean that we all have to be slaves of it? Do you think that Picasso was asking old masters for forgiveness, because he has created few artistic trends?

@Atilla, I have mentioned before, but nobody responded … where harmony between tree and something obviously made by man and shiny like ware is? It is only learned harmony made by someone else. If we consider ourselves artists I suppose that we are able to create new “kinds” of harmonies. Punk music, if you know it, possesses exceptional harmony, but if someone only listens to classical music only, probably it would not nottice that. I can listen to Tchaikovsky and some hard core punk band and enjoy equally.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:57 pm

Andrija Zokic wrote: If we consider ourselves artists I suppose that we are able to create new “kinds” of harmonies. Punk music, if you know it, possesses exceptional harmony, but if someone only listens to classical music only, probably it would not nottice that. I can listen to Tchaikovsky and some hard core punk band and enjoy equally.

I agree. Harmony always depends on the objective that we are trying to achieve. It simply means that the components of a system work well together, to achieve whatever the artist has in mind. The harmony in a peaceful and serene image, and the harmony in a dramatic or dynamic setting require totally different approaches.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Hans van Meer. on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:58 pm

Hi everybody,
now I am not as good in the written English language, so some times it is very hard to convey ones thought. But I am willing to give it a go again. I am far from being a traditional bonsai artist. And fare away from the Japanese styling approach! I more or less do as I please to great a tree in my own vision, my idea of beauty in Bonsai! I dont mind at all that people are trying different things in bonsai. Nick Lens can get away with murder with me! And do you know why, because his trees are so damn good and all proportions are right!
I never meant any disrespect to the potter of this pots discussed in this post or to those who like his pots and even plant trees in them! But I just dont understand that they just wont except or even contemplate that most of the examples shown are just plane wrong in more than one way! If you show me one composition with one of these pots that realy compliment the tree and is in proper balance and is not obstructive or just simply wrong, I will be the first to admit what a brave and well chosen pot it was to use.
So dont be offended by this reply from me, than I wont be offended by the fact that you keep on trying to sell me something I just dont like, because they were badly selected combo's! Again if it's works, bravo! If not, it looks completely misplaced! And that is a shame for all these rare and priceless living things!
Somewhere there was a mansion of a beautiful woman in a nice dress. Well see what happens when this top model has planted here feet's into these to big and wrongly chosen shoes!



I cant explain it more simpler than this! Wink Wink But I am sure that some will call it visionary art again! Wink
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  my nellie on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 pm

Missing shoelaces would make the difference, though! Razz


Last edited by my nellie on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Word replaced.)

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:22 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote: If you show me one composition with one of these pots that realy compliment the tree and is in proper balance and is not obstructive or just simply wrong, I will be the first to admit what a brave and well chosen pot it was to use.

http://www.pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/77416184

http://74.125.67.100/imgres?imgurl=https://i85.servimg.com/u/f85/13/95/98/34/photo_10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/bonsai-f1/when-is-a-bonsai-not-a-bonsai-t886-105.htm&usg=__NXSN64720UoT1Dx6GT0trHB9Lzg=&h=640&w=480&sz=87&hl=en&start=78&zoom=1&tbnid=-q8uTpJ_YeEmfM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbonsai%2Bfrom%2Bkimura,%2Bpictures%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rlz%3D1T4WZPA_enUS211US225%26biw%3D1004%26bih%3D564%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C2171&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=118&vpy=147&dur=8390&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=100&ty=132&ei=yXZ9TLWgBIP98AagtJXLBg&oei=onV9TL-BFIL_8Ab665XtBQ&esq=3&page=6&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:78&biw=1004&bih=564

Check out this picture and imagine that the rock is a Mateusz Grobelny pot.


Last edited by Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:43 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:30 pm

Here is another one. This one could easily pass for a Mateusz Grobelny pot. Of course, the pot would be an abstract version of it.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/tree%20growing%20on%20rock/narc121/Vacation/DSC00686.jpg?o=5

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Andrija Zokic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:35 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote:
Somewhere there was a mansion of a beautiful woman in a nice dress. Well see what happens when this top model has planted here feet's into these to big and wrongly chosen shoes!
I cant explain it more simpler than this! Wink Wink But I am sure that some will call it visionary art again! Wink

I really can't relate ugly old tree with skinny, "ideal" model.
That shoes belongs to old man, that can be compared to old tree like Marko's pine.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Kalogero on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:00 pm

Even if we try to make bonsai like a real tree in nature, those exemples cannot work with this thread because.....those are real trees in real nature. The proportions are not the same. But now, I can say that those pots reminds me something : H.R. Giger art (Alien's "father"). I love Giger's work, but I don't think it would fit with my trees.
The same for Mateusz pots : it's a beautiful work but, in my point of view, not for a bonsai.


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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Hans van Meer. on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:04 pm

Attila Soos wrote:
Hans van Meer. wrote: If you show me one composition with one of these pots that realy compliment the tree and is in proper balance and is not obstructive or just simply wrong, I will be the first to admit what a brave and well chosen pot it was to use.

http://www.pbase.com/mad_monte1/image/77416184

Check out this picture and imagine that the rock is a Mateusz Grobelny pot.

Has been don many times before! And again if he would manage to get the size of the structure of the fake mountain pot in balance with the bark of the tree, I would not see why that good not work? But again the rough structure of most of the pots shown in this posts are proportional to big and dwarf the tree! And most posted were to large and bulky anyway so that did not help ether!
Here is one of my trees that I planted more than 10 years ago on a piece of petrified wood, symbolizing the trees that I remember to climb on as a child during our vacations in the south of France. Just to prove that I also will use everything to tell a story, but there has to be balance between the tree and the object you choose that's all I am trying to say realy! Attila you must understand what I am trying to say here, dont you?




Cheers,
Hans van Meer!

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:15 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote: Here is one of my trees that I planted more than 10 years ago on a piece of petrified wood, symbolizing the trees that I remember to climb on as a child during our vacations in the south of France. Just to prove that I also will use everything to tell a story, but there has to be balance between the tree and the object you choose that's all I am trying to say realy! Attila you must understand what I am trying to say here, dont you?




Cheers,
Hans van Meer!

Yes, of course. Bonsaists have been planting bonsai on various natural objects (rocks, petrified wood, ect) for a long time. And this is accepted in bonsai circles.

So, what is so wrong about using ceramics to evoke similar objects? Instead of copying such a rock, the artist will use various textures, colours, shapes, to create such a feeling in the viewer. It's much more abstract than a real rock, but what's wrong with that?

Isn't this what modern sculpture and pottery is about? As I said, it is not strictly bonsai. It is a combination of bonsai and sculpture.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:28 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote: And again if he would manage to get the size of the structure of the fake mountain pot in balance with the bark of the tree, I would not see why that good not work?

I suspect that some of these modern pots work better than others, and some would not work at all. In certain cases, I feel that the pot should be either smaller, or larger, in order for me to work. Personally, I like some of them very much, but there are some that I am not too excited about.

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Hans van Meer. on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:41 pm


Attila: So, what is so wrong about using ceramics to evoke similar objects? Instead of copying such a rock, the artist will use various textures, colours, shapes, to create such a feeling in the viewer. It's much more abstract than a real rock, but what's wrong with that?

Nothing at all! As long as it is proportional right! We spent years of down sizing roots, branches and the foliage to mimic the proportions of a original large tree as close as posible in our little trees! Don't we? So than you finally have accomplished that your little tree has with your guidance found harmony between all these importand points....and than you plant it in a container which totally destroys this o so delicate balance! Makes no sense, those it! They plants there trees in rock like pots to make them look more natural. Wile actually they are accomplishing just the opposite by destroying the illusion of a small tree in balance, that looks out of place on a wrong textured and to big pot!
Again it has to work together, not against each other!
Cheers,
Hans.


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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:53 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote:
Nothing at all! As long as it is proportional right!

Sure. And is the proportion something set in stone? Can the proportion vary, depending on what the artist trying to evoke: a mountain, a rocky ledge, an open field, a rotten log, or a surreal object? Do all the examples I listed need to have the exact same proportion?


Last edited by Attila Soos on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : content)

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:00 am

Hans wrote: Just to prove that I also will use everything to tell a story, but there has to be balance between the tree and the object you choose ,,,

Precisely! I also use other types of pots, slaps whatever. But the proportions of tree and pot, the harmony of the bonsai, is of utmost importance. Whatever way you go, it doesn't work if proportions are neglected.

Regards
Morten

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  landerloos on Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:29 am

Morten Albek wrote:Hans wrote: Just to prove that I also will use everything to tell a story, but there has to be balance between the tree and the object you choose ,,,

Precisely! I also use other types of pots, slaps whatever. But the proportions of tree and pot, the harmony of the bonsai, is of utmost importance. Whatever way you go, it doesn't work if proportions are neglected.

Regards
Morten

You hit the nail on the head Morten and Hans.

Peter

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Andrija Zokic on Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:24 am

Where are proportions and beauty on this body?



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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  landerloos on Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:41 am

Andrija Zokic wrote:Where are proportions and beauty on this body?


Nowhere, its ugly and out of porportion (read: not my taste), you cant post this work of art without permission of the artist, at least you should have the courtesy to mention where you found the pic. All about copyright Wink
If a tree doesnt fit with a pot, its robbing the trees beauty.
People always tell me I have an exquistit taste in pots, especially combining trees and pots.

Peter

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Post  Walter Pall on Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:45 am

Interesting discussions. I think it is all a matter of taste. And taste is NOT something eternal, it is learned. It can also be unlearned.
It is fruitless to try to proof one's personal taste with rules and laws and 'natural feelings'.

The proof is in the pudding: how many people like this now. How many pole will like this in ten years. How many people will like this in fifty years.

I can tell you that I find a clear majority of people who like the big larch now. And they like it very much. I think the combination could not be better.
A minority likes the mugo in huge round pot. I personally was not exactly sure when I potted it but I definitely like it now.
From all the reactions from the Internet and in person at my late summer meeting I can definitely say that much more than 50 % of bonsai insiders like this new development. I dare to say that this will increase as people see more of this, get used to this and the trees become more mature. One very important pot is that these pots need patina which they will get easily.

So those who hate this are a minority already. This is more than I expected. Are those who don't like it wrong? No, there is no wrong or right as much as they try to explain it. It is an art and not a craft, anyway the way I do it.

It is perfectly OK to not like this. It is OK to hate it. It is not OK to call me arrogant or say that I do this because I want to desperately be different and do self marketing. The truth is that I think it's brilliant. You can blame me for my bad taste but not for my character.

This thread in part shows clearly that my statement is right: "Bonsai by and large is the most backward looking art form that I know of".

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Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

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