Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

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Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  CharlieBear on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:32 pm

My first Bonsai and it is indoors 100% of the time. I use a T5 light fixture and stand. The tree has done well since March 2010 when I got it. It is still doing well. I would like some advice on this tree in it's indoor setting about the following:

1. Is there a common and easy way to simulate 'dormancy' indoors so my tree might live a very long time?
2. Is this tree at risk of premature death if it does not realize a seasonal dormancy period?
3. How can I determine if and when repotting is in order?
4. How can I judge the tree's age accurately?
5. How do other successful indoor Bonsai artists deal with dormancy?

Thank you all...
Charles

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  JimLewis on Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:11 pm

CharlieBear wrote:My first Bonsai and it is indoors 100% of the time. I use a T5 light fixture and stand. The tree has done well since March 2010 when I got it. It is still doing well. I would like some advice on this tree in it's indoor setting about the following:

1. Is there a common and easy way to simulate 'dormancy' indoors so my tree might live a very long time?

No.

2. Is this tree at risk of premature death if it does not realize a seasonal dormancy period?

Yes.

3. How can I determine if and when repotting is in order?

On elms grown outdoors, annual repotting is almost always needed; I assume yours is relatively young, so annual repotting would seem likely. I don't grow elms (or anything else indoors except in winter) so I don't know if there would be a difference. If roots start poking out the drainage holes, that too is an indicator.

4. How can I judge the tree's age accurately?

You can't. Post a picture and some of us who know more about elms (and mallsai???) might be able to make a guesstimate.

5. How do other successful indoor Bonsai artists deal with dormancy?

A cold garage, unheated porch, cold frame, etc. But MOST growers don't grow elms indoors all year long and except in Montana, N. Dakota and the like, tend to keep their elms outdoors even in winter, though perhaps with some protection. Indoors is a very, very unnatural -- and hostile -- environment for trees like elms.

"Indoor trees" are tropicals -- Ficus and its ilk -- and even they prefer being outside in warm weather.

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:31 pm

The tree came from Brussels Bonsai Nursery in Olive Branch,MS and is NOT "mallsai" - FYI. Thank you for your succinct repsonses.
I hesitate to ask this but, is my tree doomed to 'die young?' I could place it in a dark closet during the winter season if you think that might help. If it is doomed to die I'll burn it and get a tropical Bonsai instead. Why waste time and effort on a lost cause. Lastly, I have seen posts by some Bonsai enthusiasts that have "grown under flourescents" for over 20 years. Maybe I need to ask them.....this tree was a gift and the giver specifically asked Brussells to send an "indoor Bonsai" - evidently they are mistaken as well...

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  JimLewis on Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:50 pm

A picture might still help. Also some indication as to size. For dormancy it is cold weather and length of day that trigger it. Various tees need more or less cold days than others. People have overwintered trees in their refrigerator, but a 2-foot bonsai takes up a bit of room.

Chinese elms are one of those "in-between" species. They are evergreen in Zones 8-11 and deciduous in colder areas. Indoors they seldom will drop leaves.

But, except for people who have both experience with indoor trees and proper climate controlled indoor growing areas, they seldom will thrive, either. They may say alive for a few years, but will be much weaker than a similar tree kept outside and will eventually degrade to the point of poor health or death. Insect problems multiply for trees kept indoors -- primarily because indoor trees are almost never in the peak of health. With (or after) insects come plant diseases -- bacterial and fungal diseases.

I know that elms are sold as indoor trees. I think most of us would agree that they should not be.

Afterall, there are NO trees -- no plants, for that matter -- which are native to the dry indoor air-conditioned and heated air and dim light along with poor ventilation that humans prefer.

It takes more than a lighting setup (and I don't know the lights you cite). Fluorescents need to be on a Ficus for at least 13 hours a day. The humidity required for "comfort" in an indoor tree would cause mold to grow on the walls of your house and on the furniture (and misting and sitting the pot on a bed of pebbles in water) are not sufficient long term providers of humidity. The tree also should have a fan blowing across it regularly for air movement.

Others had better chip in here. I don't do indoor growing except as
mentioned for a few Ficus and a Bougainvillea in the winter (and they
all suffer from my "care" over the winter). I may paint a bleaker pictures than some others. But biology is biology.

Is there some reason you cannot keep this tree outdoors?

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  fiona on Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:18 pm

I'm with Jim on this one.

The map I am currently looking at puts Arkansas at round about 34 N latitude. The Glasgow area where I live is at Lat 55 N and yet I seldom keep a Chinese Elm indoors. The best mine ever get is an unheated glasshouse over the winter but only if it is a bad one like last year. For several years before that, mine did fine outdoors all year round, and we have winter temperatures of below freezing. When it drops to that I may cover the CEs with horticultural fleece. I'm not sure what temperatures are like in Arkansas - are summer temperatures routinely lower than between the 15C and 26C (59 and 78 Fahrenheit) that we get here.

I'd also confirm that on the very few occasions I've brought CEs indoors, I have had a constant fight with various bugs.

The only tree I have actually brought indoors in the past 10 years is a Bougainvillea and even that right now is sitting in a warm corner of the garden.

As Jim says, it would be helpful to know what size your trees are, Charlie. My ones are all fairly small.
I'd gamble and put yours outside for a while and let them toughen up a bit before winter. And, why simulate dormancy if you can get the real thing?


btw: what is air-conditioning? Wink





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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Todd Ellis on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:24 pm

Hi Charlie,
I have grown tropical (zones 9 and above) and subtropical (zones 8 and higher, a.k.a. tender temperate) indoors for many years. I grow them outdoors during warm weather, and then bring them inside when temperatures are too cold for them.
Chinese Elms need to go dormant. However, the type of dormancy depends on the growing conditions that the tree originated from. How's that? Chinese Elms have naturalized in many areas around the world. Some grow in tropical conditions, some subtropical, and some grow in temperate conditions... and they all thrive. Once placed in a container however, they are more "fragile" to the environment. For instance, if you live in a zone 8 area and collect an elm from the wild, you need to treat it as if you live in zone 7 or Zone 6.
Now, back to dormancy. Some Chinese Elm bonsai do well with a dormancy in temps in the 50f range. Some grow well when given a cold dormancy where the night temps range in the 33-45 f range. They can stay outdoors in these conditions all through the Winter. Some Chinese Elms will need to be exposed to frost for a few weeks. Some Chinese Elms will do well if they freeze for a month or so. It all depends on where the particular strain originated from. I bought an imported Tiawanese Chinese Elm, a large tree, from an eBayer in Florida and assumed that I could aclimate it to zone 7. It died during the first Winter. It was well protected and did not dry out. It just got too cold for it. I now have large Chinese Elm from Brussels, imported, and I keep it out doors from May 1st through about Xmas time. It goes dormant, and then starts actively growing when I bring it indoors under flourescent lights (12 - 16 hours per night). It is thriving and I have to prune it regularly.
I wish I had the means to own a green house (warm or cold), but am content with growing tender species indoor for the Winter and Early Spring. Tropicals should all grow outdoors when the temps are favorable; they just grow better. This doesn't mean that you won't get years and years of success by keeping your tree indoors year round. Just know that it will be happier growing outdoors in the right seasons. I have been taught, and also experienced, that the older trees have a harder time adjusting to zone changes for year round growing.
Many people new to bonsai want to decorate with their trees because they like the thought of having this "naturall marvel" in their home; like they see in magazines, etc. Know that experienced bonsai growers only display their tree indoors ( at most) for a few days at a time. The environments that most westerners are use to can be compared to desert conditions - Very Dry. Many tropical house plants will grow well, but they need regular watering, feeding and some light. Many seem to live for decades, BUT will always do better outdoors when the weather is right. Good luck and read all you can. One of the constants in the Bonsai arena is "there are always contradictions to what you learn".
I hope this helps. Salut, Todd

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Post  moyogijohn on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:04 am

Charlie,,I ama elm lover too.i have 6 that came from brussels too, i am in west virginia and i do not keep my elms inside..i tried once the tree did not go dormant and grew long leggy limbs which had to be pruned off in the spring...it did good until summer then it died ..i would put the tree out side let it have some sunand grow like it is suppose to. in the fall let it get cold loose its leaves then put it in a place it can stay cool .maybe not freeze but mine do in the little greenhouse i have but not for long..watch your water in winter because of root rot...elms can be inside for a while but they need the elements or the out side..hope this helps john

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:44 am

Well, some of you hinted that I would see this thread & be compelled to weigh in on it. Razz
For those who don't know me, I have been growing tropical plants under fluorescent lights for over fifty years, African violets, begonias, orchids; and bonsai for the last 21. I wrote a series of articles on bonsai under lights for International Bonsai magazine 2007-2008.
It is unfortunate that nurseries in the South are selling elms and junipers as indoor bonsai. The growers down there don't realize the difference between growing indoors in Olive Branch, MS or Miami, and growing indoors on the 43rd Parallel (Zone 5, Central NY) (if they've ever tried it at all).
Let me clarify, with the others, that Chinese elm, no matter where it is from, is a temperate tree. Different varieties may require a different number of chilling hours, but they all require a dormant period below about 40 F (-8 or so C). The only variety that may not is the Catlin elm, & I am not familiar with it.
In Arkansas, your elm can spend the entire year outdoors. Don't bother with fluorescent lights. Just put it in a protected location for the winter. It should be outdoors right now, starting in the shade & then gradually into almost full sun. Don't delay if you want a healthy tree. The leaves will turn yellow in the fall & may fall off in January.
For those unfamiliar with the term, T5 is a new type of fluorescent light. It gives more light than the conventional T12 and uses much less energy. However, it requires different lamps & different ballasts. If you are planning a new light garden setup, start with T5. However, at my age I am stuck with my plant room of six conventional shop-lights with T12 tubes. Crying or Very sad
I put all my plants outside for the summer, with two exceptions, Phalaenopsis (moth orchids) and African violets. I firmly believe that all bonsai should be outdoors as long as possible, to promote better health, smaller leaves, and tighter internodes. To be honest, Jack Wikle, who has been growing bonsai under lights successfully for 30 years or so, grows them indoors all year round. His are mostly shohin (under 10") and mame (under 6"). You can probably find some of his trees on the Web and see for yourself.
You asked about repotting. Your tree undoubtedly needs repotting as soon as possible. Treat it like the outdoor tree it is, and then repot it in the spring, just when the buds are starting to show green. Meanwhile, if it is in a plastic pot, start looking for a nice ceramic bonsai pot and get a good quality bonsai soil. Watch your watering carefully. Don't water until the soil starts to dry out, especially in fall & winter. Chinese elms are prone to root rot
Iris


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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:14 am

Let me thank each of you that responded and those that may still do so. It is so very true that contradictions abound in the care and feeding of Bonsai. In that regard it is not that much unlike religion! Well, I digress. I am an apartment dweller and that is why I cannot and will not put my tree outside. I cannot (this is so sad) trust the neighbors and even passers by to not fool with or remove my tree from the property. So I am truly stuck with it indoors. I'll follow-up on Jack Wickle as well and TY bonsaisr for that. It was yourself and I think Jack too I had in mind about 'successful indoor Bomsai' when I commented earlier. I have come to really love my tree..not only for it's outward beauty but the mood it puts me in as I care for it and tend to it daily. I also sense an avenue of artistic expression within my association with this elm. Thanks also for the watering tips..I do that already and on the average it needs water about every 1 1/2 - 2 days based on soil dryness. The tree originally had moss covering the soil but I removed it so as to better see the dryness of the soil and determine if and when to water. I think what I'll do (since 24/7 indoors is a death sentence..sooner or later..) is to ask a friend who has a private yard to let me winter my elm in her yard..YES! That is what I'll do! I'll miss seeing my tree each day and talking to it..but so be it. Well, this has been a very rewarding exercise and thanks to all past and furture that may still chime in. I'm 'watching this thread' so I'll make sure I read evey contribution. Bye bye from Fayetteville,AR (GO HOGS!!) cheers

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:50 pm

Charlie2700 wrote:I think what I'll do (since 24/7 indoors is a death sentence..sooner or later..) is to ask a friend who has a private yard to let me winter my elm in her yard.
I'm afraid that won't work. You can't keep the elm indoors until winter and then put it outdoors. That will kill it. It needs to be outdoors NOW. I suggest you contact the nearest bonsai club (I'm sure there is one at least in Little Rock) or post it on CraigsList, and sell it while it is still healthy. Then go to Walmart or Lowe's and get yourself a couple of Ficus to grow under lights. The tiger bark Chinese banyan with the S curve that they sell all over is excellent for your setup. Skip the ginseng monstrosities. They are not bonsai.
Too bad your apartment lacks a balcony.
Iris

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:01 pm

I have 8 or 9 elms, none of them chinese. They are currently outside in full sun, watered twice daily and fed every two weeks. In the winter I used to take bales of straw and form a "U" against my outside basement window. Put down some straw and set the trees on the straw. Then I would cover the U with boards and then more straw. Then I covered the top with a tarp. Leaving the sides open allws for some breathing. I never checked on the trees until we received temperatures above 50; then I would open it up, water the trees and let them "breath" until nightfall.

The last two years I used a cold frame, with minor heat and humidity trays.

Unfortunately, with a temperate tree, I can't see how to get around the fact that these trees require the shorter phototropic periods (and tolerate total darkness) and they require a drop in temperature to cause the tree to pull in its sap and concentrate growth on the roots.

If you visit your friend frequently, maybe putting it in a prominent place in her yards and protecting it in the winter might be a safe alternative.

Jay

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:36 pm

I need to chime in again on this topic. As mentioned in my first reply there is no lack of debate and even seemingly flat-out contradictions to work through for a new Bonsai artist such as myself. I telephoned a Bonsai nursery about 50 miles from me in Van Buren, AR. American Bonsai Nursery.
Had a nice 15 minute chat with the proprietor Bill. I explained my conundrum about my indoor Chinese Elm and 'dormancy' and the overall question of keeping this tree indoors 24/7. Bill said "no sweat" keeping this Chinese Elm indoors 24/7. I asked about dormancy and he says it does experience a dormancy cycle indoors and is triggered by the number of hours of light per day. He uses natural "window sill' light and nature's seasonal clock triggers the trees. So for those growing under lights just time them to coincide with the light hours per day for every season. Indoor dormancy will be evidenced by an increase in leaf loss. Again these are Chinese Elms indoors 24/7. He has 5 or 6 of these trees indoors and doing fine the past 6 years. He simply tends to them with sound Bonsai method and technique and does nothing 'special' to his indoor Chinese Elms. And he added "I just treat them as any other tree". I am planning a trip down south to meet Bill. He has Bonsai classes convening in October and I'll certainly be there with my tree. I told Bill I was saddened I would have to give up my elm, but he assured me it could live and thrive "another 100 years indoors." I am not trying to plug Bill's business. He is a Bonsai nursery owner and Chinese Elms are listed on his site in the group of trees he sells as "indoor -or- outdoor". I am convinced I can duplicate his successful 24/7 indoor Chinese Elm experience. OK..here's a dose of Bonsai tree 'contradiction' for you. Brussel's Bonsai Nursery (where I purchasesd the tree) tells me "no way" and the tree must be outdoors -or- it will definetely die withion a year or two maximum longevity. American Bonsai tells me "no sweat" and has had indoor Chinese Elms for many years. Maybe those that claim you cannot do this (Chinese Elms indoors 24/7) are simply parroting what someone else evidently convinced them of. Bill's "testimony" was compelling and very convincing. In a couple weeks I'll visit there and see these indoor Elms first hand. My Chinese Elm pics below. This tree is about 15" tall.






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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  fiona on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:51 pm

Why don't you just put the tree on a window sill?

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:46 pm

fiona wrote:Why don't you just put the tree on a window sill?

As a total 100% Bonsai 'newbie' just this past last March I was persuaded by discussions and web sites touting the effectiveness of T5 lights and how for the same plant or tree, in this case, generally speaking those under T5 light would show noticeably more vibrant health, more growth and more lush foliage. So far I have nothing else to compare my own T5 lighting to since it is all I've ever used. It doesn't seem to have had any negative impact so far, that I can detect.

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chinese elm in side

Post  moyogijohn on Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:27 am

CHARLIE I looked at the pictures you posted and have a couple of suggestions...If you have to keep the tree inside because of the reasons posted i would do two things... the branch that is curveing around to the front at the bottom i would remove because it will hide the trunk in time also all of your foliage looks to be at the ends of the branches..i would trim the foliage back hard to 2 or4 sets of leaves to make the tree back bud closer to the trunk...it is going to be inside anyway so it will not matter i would not think... your tree looks good to me just needs more foliage...my opion and good luck...john

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:51 am

Thank you John for those ideas and I have wondered how to deal with the lower branches. They have been sparse since day 1..and have since March shown growth and new leaves but not all along the branch's length. What tool should I use to do this 'amputation?' I have 'Bonsai' snippers but doubt they would get the job done right. I really hope a simple hacksaw blade will suffice. I'll get to this branch very soon. I'll use a hacksaw blade by itself between my fingers unless I hear otherwise the next week or so since this is not a 'code red' matter right now today. How about dealing with the 'wounded' area after branch removal? I suppose even if it scarred the trunk that would simply add character!! I appreciate your response John.... I am also relieved that there is hope and a precedent that persuades me to expect I will never have to give up my elm tree for a very long time.

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IN door chinese elm

Post  moyogijohn on Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:59 pm

Charlie cut the branch as close as you can without scaring the trunk..a pair of concave cutters is what you need to make a small indention in the trunk..that bonsai tool is one you need to tack off branches the way they need to be...john

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:51 pm


Thanks again John...I'll be sure to use the correct tool for this task. When you previously mentioned a 'hard trimming' or words to that effect do you mean removing all foliage but a very few leaves, if I understood you. Could you maybe amplify on that a little and is there anything -else- I could do to help those barren branches fill-in with leaves thier entire length? I have been feeding with Bonsai Pro 7-9-5 at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of dechlorinated water. I use that mixture for watering and the occasional misting. I added a couple pics of what will be the 3 remaining 'lower branches' (viewed from the front) after I properly remove the targeted branch. Maybe they could help in any further tips you might have.

<- shows 2 of the 3 remaining branches
<- shows the other '1' of the 3 remaining branches

Oh and lastly (for now at least) is tghere a good way to remove the rings of rust shown in these pics? I suppose from Brussel's previous wiring.


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chinese elm

Post  moyogijohn on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:46 pm

CHARLIE I did not mean to trim the branches off.. i ment to trim the foliage back to 2 or 4 sets of leaves..the only branch to remove is the one growing on the front of the trunk... the rust try to clean the trunk,branches with dawn dish soap in water. use a tooth brush and scrub the areas then spray it down with water..i clean my trees like that.. hope this helps john

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:06 pm

I DO wish people would post pictures here. That's what we're FOR.

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INDOOR ELM

Post  moyogijohn on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:08 pm

JIM Look on the first page....there are some pictures john

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:57 pm

Trimmed Chinese Elm <- snap of Elm after branch removal and trimming remaining lower branches.

Thx for the rust removal tip. I will try that. I did not misunderstand and did remove only the one targeted limb and then trimmed the remaining 3 lower branches to leave only 4 or so leaves on each branch.

Thank you for your advice and encouragement.

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:02 pm

JimLewis wrote:I DO wish people would post pictures here. That's what we're FOR.

I did.

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:27 pm

All I see are "mediafire" links.

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

Post  Charlie2700 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:34 pm

...and how does that make you feel?

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Re: Indoor 'dormancy' and repotting of Chinese Elm under T5 lighting.

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