JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

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JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  thomasj on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:45 pm

Rather than go back to the thread I started about 5 or 6 weeks ago, I'll just post the before and after pics here. I started the task on July 2nd and finished this past weekend. The first ones are already putting out nice new buds which appear exactly 10 days after the work has been done. I notice that hardly anyone posts their JBP decandeling. It would be nice to see some others. Smile









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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  bobby little on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:54 pm

I'm confused. I've got a JWP and I have no idea what to do with it - bought it because I had a few bob burning a hole in my pocket and didn't do any research in advance. none of nbooks have a description of how to maintain needle length or anything.

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  anttal63 on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:20 pm

Thankyou for sharing Thomas! as always lookn great... cheers

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  thomasj on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:21 pm

It's true that there's not too much info out there on JWPs. Your best bet would be to try and find someone who has been working on them and can give you first hand advice. These trees need to be done on a set schedule at various times of the year. I've often heard that JWP work is done at opposite intervals of JBPs. I hope you can find someone who will lend a hand. Smile

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  William Feldman on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:39 pm

bobby little wrote:I've got a JWP and I have no idea what to do with it
Do NOT decandle it. That's for Japanese black pines only.

Here are my notes on Japanese white pines. Hope it isn't too much information:


Pinch back candles:

Bonsai Today 5-57 says:
April to May, remove candle by cutting with fingernail down to 2 or 3 new buds.
If a strong unneeded candle has smaller candles at base, it can be completely removed.

Bonsai Today 10-34 says:
Best time is end of April.
Leave only 1/2 or 1/4 of the initial length of the candles.
(On established trees, leave 1/4 of the candle)

Prune shoots later, only in strong areas, late May or early June, when the candles have stopped growing and are almost at the point of separating into needles.

Leave 4 or 5 groups of new needles.

Important to prune shoots on candles that weren't pinched, or on candles that where pinched too lightly, (not enough pinched off).

In young trees, pruning shoots is preferable to pinching back candles, as it helps thicken the branch.



Pruning: (Bonsai Today 10-35)
Late May to early June.
Gives more strength to the interior and refines the outline.
If there is a small shoot near a strong one, cut off the strong one completely.

Remove old needles:
Middle of November.(Bonsai Today 5-57)
Middle of September (Bonsai Today 10-36) when needles have matured.
Cut back to the sheath, not all the way back to the branch. (10-57)
Leave about 1/16th of an inch just beyond sheath that envelops the needles. (Bonsai Today 10-36)
On strong shoots, remove some of the new needles too. On medium-strength shoots, remove just the old needles.
Leave weak shoots untouched. (Wait for old needles to fall out by themselves.)

Bud removal: (Bonsai Today 10-36)
Middle of October (one month after removing needles).
Leave only 2 buds per shoot in general.
On strong branches remove the strong buds.
On weak branches remove the weak buds.

Special instructions for Japanese white pine 'Zuisho':

Young Zuisho should not be candle-pruned, but left to grow to thicken the trunk and branches.
Cut back heavily in the winter. (Bonsai Today 5-58)
It will bud back from the trunk easily when the tree's new growth is heavily pruned. (Bonsai Today 8-20)

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  bobby little on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:34 pm

Very Happy cheers man. never trim the actual needles yes? So pruning involves removing the needle entirely?

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  William Feldman on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:08 am

The white pine "pruning" step involves cutting off branches selectively to shape the tree, but differs from black pine "decandling" in that decandling involves cutting off ALL of the new branches. JBPs are so vigorous that when you remove all the current year's growth, it pushes out a new set of buds with smaller needles. If you did that to a JWP, it might never recover.

The JWP grows its needles in bunches of five. The JWP "remove old needles" step involves removing the needles, but not the whole needle. The articles say to use scissors, and leave about 1/16th of an inch in case a new bud is growing from the center of the bunch. Cutting or pulling off the entire 5-needle bunch would remove the bud too.

My notes on Japanese black pines are here: http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/bonsai-f1/new-shohin-jbp-t2348.htm#23154

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  Ed Trout on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:12 am


Thomas,

Great little pines ! Thank you for sharing. I am in Florida, and I just finished decandling my JP pines. Seems like we are on a similar schedule. I am zone 10c. What is your zone ?


Ed Trout Pembroke Pines, Florida

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  Guest on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:34 am

Bobby. Hopefully someone in the UK will post some answers for you. JBP's are developed over a 2 year cycle over here, as opposed to 1 year in Japan. JWP's do not back bud as easily as JBP's or Scots Pine. I have heard strong feeding promotes 3 apical buds with JWP's and when pruned, will back bud.

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  thomasj on Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:48 am

Hi Ed,
My zone is 8 here in the DFW area. How about sharing some pics of your JBPs? Very Happy

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  peter keane on Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:03 am

Bobby. Why don't you Google David Prescott. He's an artist up in Manchester. I've visited him back in 2006. His work is wonderful. He can steer you right with white pine care.

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Japanese White Pine - UK info - Trees in Development

Post  wabashene on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:22 pm

Hi Bobby,

This method works 100% for me- a relative J white pine virgin. See the care guide at the end of the article.

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATJapaneseWhitePine.htm

I won't touch it again until Nov - Dec

Not much of a tree but extremely healthy and particularly vigorous this season.

That's probably the kiss of death then!

I'll take a pic if I can.

To get back on topic - I have tried to grow JBP twice now from 1 year old seedlings via the forced method as described in the "Pines Book" with no joy whatsoever. They just shrivel up on me.

I would definitely like to add one to my collection.

Thomas' are great little classics

Thks

TimR

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:52 pm

In my part of Florida the decandleing and needle pulling is done on a twice a year basis. My next phase starts in August and finishes in September with the large trees going first and the smaller trees in September. I'll try to post something then either here or on my blog.

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  thomasj on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:57 pm

Tim,
You shouldn't have that big a problem growing seedlings. Below are a few examples using the method from the book "Bonsai Today Master Series Pines". The first pic shows a two yr old JBP seedling in its seedling container with a coarse mixture of soil setting in another more coarse mixture in a store bought collander. I had some very large size akadama left over and used it for this. Here in Texas the summers are brutal with temps in the upper 90s and low 100s for about three months if not longer. For this reason I set the collander in another shallow size tray and when I water the the tree I let the water stay in the tray so that the tree is constantly getting some moisture since they have to be in the full sun all the time.

As you can see this method works really good because the last two pics show a three or four yr old seedling coming along quite nicely. This winter I will decide which branches must go and which I will keep for sacrifice branches in order to thicken up the trunk.






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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  bobby little on Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:47 pm

thanks dudes Very Happy Cool

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Re: JBP Decandeling - Finished For 2010

Post  wabashene on Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:07 pm

Thomas J. wrote:Tim,
You shouldn't have that big a problem growing seedlings. Below are a few examples using the method from the book "Bonsai Today Master Series Pines".

Hi Thomas,

Yes I've tried it twice with 5 x 1 yr old seedlings I used to obtain local to Reading where I work.

I think my mistake was removing them from the gritty peat based soil in their grow pots into mini pond baskets filled with free draining soil. Although I tried to minimise root disturbance, perhaps the shock on the underdeveloped root system and the sudden change of environment was too much.

I also think I may have underwatered. The periods concerned were especially hot and dry in UK South and JBP do like a lot of water afaik. I'm away from home at work 12 hours a day and a lot can happen to a small tree in a small pot in that time as we know.

I think next time, I will bury the pots in a shallow propagation trough.

The results obtained by our Japanese friend as shown in the "Pines" book are certainly impressive as are yours.

Your examples certainly give me an urge to try again.

thks

TimR

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