Pine Problem

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Pine Problem

Post  fiona on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:32 am

Any suggestions as to what might be causing this "zebra" effect on a Scots Pine belonging to my bonsai friend and fellow IBCer Peter Thorne?

It is something that has just happened this year. Only other snippet of information which may be relevant is that it had a woolly aphid infestation earlier in the year which he got rid of by soaking the tree with soapy water.




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Pine Problem

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:48 am

A classic case of needle cast Fiona. Get your Copper Fungicide out and start a treatment. Once a month should do it. Three or four applications. I have discovered no needle cast on my Pines this year. I have stopped watering the foliage this last year. May be a coincidence.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  fiona on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:00 am

Any other possible causes you can think of apart from watering the foliage?

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:11 am

As far as I know, needle cast is an airborn Fungus and ( wild stab in the dark) is going to be worse in a damp environment. I have also fed my Pines very strongly this Spring which may also help. Another factor is the lack of rain down here. As scientific experiments go, I have a lot to learn!! Confused
Don't know if bugs can spread the disease? They will weaken the tree and this could be a factor.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Peter Thorne on Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Will thanks for the advice. I have been feeding the tree well and it has been thriving with lots of new growth, strong candles and some back budding. Pines normally grow well in Scotland, and as an indigenous species seem to cope with our wet climate. I have several pines in my collection and most of the others were also affected by the woolly aphid problem, however this is the only one with the pine needle cast. Should I use the Copper fungicide as a routine preventative to be applied to all my pines? If so, can you suggest a particular brand and what strength to use.

I presume the needles with the problem will soon die, so should I cut them off now? Are there likely to be any other effects?

Any further advice would be welcome.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Guest on Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:23 am

Hello Peter. This disease can be fatal and early diagnosis is the key. I have lost 2 of my pines and no longer leave it to chance. I use Copper fungicide as instructed on the box. I no longer water the canopy either as I think this may promote damp conditions for infection. I use Murphy's Copper fungicide.

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Pine problem - needle cast

Post  Peter Adams on Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:07 am

All the suggestions to treat needle cast are good. If you can locate any ZINEB it is more effective than copper in the treatment of this airborne problem. Forestry seedling beds of Scots pine planted in glades where moist air can be trapped, are often badly hit.

You are quite right about keeping the needles dry. Pull off affected needles and burn 'em - clean soil of any old dsicolored needles too. Feed your tree well - never mind getting long needles - a vigorous pine can fight off the disease, but it will return, so keep spraying. You need to spray your other pines too. Jap white/5 needle pine, Jap red pine and Jap cork bark pine are all weak in their resistance to needle cast.

The trick is to spray your pines all the time temperatures in any part of the day are 50 degrees F or more. If you spray regularly and clean off spotty needles you can avoid the complaint getting on current or new growth. Once you interrupt the cycle, you're ahead.

Good luck to you. Peter Adams

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Pine Problem

Post  Guest on Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:17 am

Hello Peter. Thankyou for confirming my suspicions. I have never been very scientific.......More observant and speculative. Cool

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Chipping in.

Post  pmjos on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:38 pm

There are about 40 different species of Needle Cast fungi so it really refers to the disease effects from the infection. There is more or less a type of fungus for each species of pine. Below are some of the main species each of which has its own effects.

Bifusella linearis (Peck) Hohn.
Elytroderma deformans (weir) Darker
Lophodermella arcuata (Darker) Darker
Lophodermella concolor
(Dearn.) Darker Lophodermium spp.
Mycosphaerella pini
Rost. in Munk [Scirrhia pini Funk & Parker]
Anamorph =Dothistroma septospora (Dorog.) Morelet

Needle cast diseases are typically controlled in commercial growing by chlorothalonil (Daconil, Bravo, etc). Bayleton (triadimefon), Cleary's 3336 (thiophanate methyl), and Banner Maxx (propiconazole) are also labeled for control. You can also use Copper fungicide as a seasonal pre treatment although it is a preventitive but can break the cycle when coupled with diligent removal of affected needles. If the needles appear to break and bend over at a brown spot, this is the fungus fruiting and discharging spores.

Draconil is used extensively as a fungicide on golf courses and although it is toxic to acquatic life it is harmless to birds. Draconil is recommended for use in Spring before growth fully extends and in Autumn as a preventative for the following season.

Copper based fungicide (bordeux mixture) which is traditionally used for fruiting plants, is typically applied in early spring twice as a wash with a two week interval. It is generally used at concentrations between 4 and 6g per litre. You should note that It leaves a greyish film which remains on the foliage until it washes off some weeks after application.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Nina on Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:52 pm

The problem with pines is that all needle problems give the same symptoms: bands on needles. If you had experienced a bad ozone event in the spring, all the needles would have a band that marked that time period. If you used a phytotoxic chemical for the aphid attack, all the needles could show a band where the young tissue was exposed to that chemical.

Needle-cast fungi are a variable bunch of species, some of which are very minor problem needling no attention; others are serious causes of disease. The way to tell if a pine has a needle cast is to take some needles, put them in a glass jar with some moist toweling, close the jar, and wait to see if fruiting bodies appear on the needles. Then you identify which needle cast is is and act accordingly. At any rate, that's what I do, and that's what a county Extension Agent would do.

I'm not willing to have an opinion on what caused those bands based on that photo.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Ian Young on Tue May 17, 2011 10:53 am

I was researching this problem myself over the weekend and came across this thread whist searching for needle cast on the IBC. I thought I would mention the use of Vitax Bordeaux Mixture as a treatment. Murphy's Copper Based Fungicide is like Hen's teeth to find and is being removed from the market in 2013. the Vitax product may be the only alternative other than old stock of the strong but now banned products. I have osted about this on my blog if it's of any use to anyone here. MYBLOG - NEEDLE CAST

Fiona/Peter, Id also be interested to hear how that pine has progressed with treatment since the initial post. Is there anything different that has been tried?

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Peter Thorne on Wed May 18, 2011 9:30 pm

Ian, like you I had great difficulty on tracking down the Murphy’s copper fungicide. Whilst I was looking for it, I did cut off the infected needles, but by the time I managed to get hold of the Murphy’s we were past the growing season. However there was no re-infection and no other apparent effect on the tree. As I understood that the right time to apply it was when the tree was growing vigorously I decided to wait until this spring before applying the treatment.

This spring the tree has been growing fine, and I decided not to treat it in case I got the dosage wrong or there was some adverse effect. I know about the maxim that prevention is better than cure, but preventative treatment of pines is not something that is done by other members of my local club, all of whom have several pines, and so I decided to stick with my cautious approach. Thus fare there is no sign of any problem ! By coincidence I was working on this particular tree this evening and so I thought you may be interested in seeing the whole tree. Its still a work in progress but then so is most of this hobby………

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Ian Young on Wed May 18, 2011 9:56 pm

Thanks for getting back on this Peter, you're a star :-) Tree's looking great.
How many times did you treat the tree in total, or was it only the once?
If it was going to make a reappearance you would think it would have happened by now.
Luckily my trees are OK, but my friend has 4 Scotties looking pretty sorry for themselves. However, this years candles are strong and extending well. Fingers crossed.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  chris on Wed May 18, 2011 10:42 pm

I have found Bordeaux mix to be very effective even on badly affective trees.
Its easy to use, it comes as a powder, add water and spray.

Regards Chris

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Nina on Fri May 20, 2011 2:20 am

Bordeaux mix is an amazing thing- one of the first fungicides. It was first used in the 1800's to spray on grapes near roadways in order to keep people from eating them, then a botanist noticed that the sprayed grapes had less disease, and Voila! However, Bordeaux mixture should not be used in very cold or very hot weather or plants may become damaged.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Ian Young on Fri May 20, 2011 9:41 am

Nina wrote:Bordeaux mix is an amazing thing- one of the first fungicides. It was first used in the 1800's to spray on grapes near roadways in order to keep people from eating them, then a botanist noticed that the sprayed grapes had less disease, and Voila! However, Bordeaux mixture should not be used in very cold or very hot weather or plants may become damaged.

What a great bit of history sunny
Now they spray that much stuff on the grapes, no one can eat them Exclamation
Thanks for the info Nina.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  fiona on Fri May 20, 2011 12:00 pm

There seems to be some considerable poetic justice in using something called Bordeaux Mix on grapes.

Or if I may put it thus: it has a degree of claret-y.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Paul B (Scotland) on Fri May 27, 2011 9:30 pm

Hi All,

I originally posted my Pine with needle cast on Alexandra's thread but thought this was a more relevant thread to ask advice on needle cast. Alexandra's thread can be seen here: http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t4331-anti-transpirants-effect-on-pinus-sylvestris

I have continued to use the copper fungicide (still haven't found out the name of it yet) every 2 weeks, giving the whole tree a really good spray each time. It's now had 4 treatments with the fungicide and the new needles are beginning to emerge looking nice and green and healthy.

I've read on this thread about removing the infected needles. My question is can I remove all the infected needles on my tree? I looked over the tree again tonight and pretty much every single old needle is infected. If I remove them all, I'll only be left with the new growth emerging. Is is too drastic to remove them all or will the tree survive with just the new growth? When cutting the old needles off, do I cut right back to the branch or can I leave 1-2mm?

Photos to show the stage of the new growth and the infected needles. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.









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Re: Pine Problem

Post  my nellie on Fri May 27, 2011 9:51 pm

Paul, I am not experienced of course but I think that you should also take into consideration the fact that at this time of year pines are having yellow needles which then fall off. Perhaps these needles on photos are not affected all of them...
I hope that someone else will respond so that we get responsible information

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Paul B (Scotland) on Fri May 27, 2011 10:12 pm


Hi Alexandra,

Thats a good point, the problem I have is distinguishing between the needles that are infected and the needles that are just 'old'. Some (50% ish) of the needles are completely brown, some with a little bit of green but displaying the signs of needle cast.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  landerloos on Fri May 27, 2011 10:17 pm

Hi my scottish buddy,

The fotos, to me dont show old needles, they are so close to the new growth, however could it be you did hurt them by wiring?

Peter

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Ian Young on Fri May 27, 2011 10:24 pm

Paul, to me your pine is budding strongly and in another few weeks the new needles will all be fully opened. I'm told it's important to get rid of all diseased needles. My mate just did his pine, similar state to yours, and he has removed all infected needle by plucking and treated with Bordeaux Mixture with no problems. I see no issue with you doing the same.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Paul B (Scotland) on Sat May 28, 2011 12:35 am


Hi Peter, nice to hear from you. You've seen this Pine before - I had it with me at Burrs last year. Terry Foster spent ages teaching me how to wire properly and he wired a alot of this tree. The amount of dead and dying needles makes me think its not a wiring problem, but something a bit more sinister. Twisted Evil

Hi Ian, thanks for the advice. I'll go for total removal of all dead and infected needles tomorrow, unless someone jumps in and shouts stop before then. I hope your mates Pine makes it, I'll let you know how mine does.

Cheers.

Paul

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Ian Young on Sat May 28, 2011 8:17 am

Paul B (Scotland) wrote:
Hi Peter, nice to hear from you. You've seen this Pine before - I had it with me at Burrs last year. Terry Foster spent ages teaching me how to wire properly and he wired a alot of this tree. The amount of dead and dying needles makes me think its not a wiring problem, but something a bit more sinister. Twisted Evil

Hi Ian, thanks for the advice. I'll go for total removal of all dead and infected needles tomorrow, unless someone jumps in and shouts stop before then. I hope your mates Pine makes it, I'll let you know how mine does.

Cheers.

Paul

I'll take a photo of his next time I'm down and pop it on here.

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Re: Pine Problem

Post  Dreamcast on Fri May 18, 2012 12:53 am

I to have problems with needle cast!

Will make my own Bordeaux mixture since nothing else is available to me where i live, i have bought the right Lime and Copper Sulfate, but cant find a good recipe for smaller dosage and how to mix it...

Anyone here that has experience with mixing there own Bordeaux?


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Re: Pine Problem

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