Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Ricky,

To me, your maple appear to be suffering salt burn. There are several different reasons for this condition to occur.

Paul

by Brett
Jim there has been many suggestions such as yours put to people with this. It makes no sense as collections that have been trained in the same place for years with no trouble are now desiccated by this.

As I said Paul you have given me this opinion on the Aussie website. Considering a pathology test found fungus, the treatment recommended worked and the fungus returned when treatment halted. Street trees surrounding my town where also affected. Collections that where not even fertilised where affected. Trees growing in full sun and extreme heat fared no different and some times better than those shaded. Well established collections that had always grown well where desiccated by this.
The affliction was wide spread over at least the state of NSW.

I can agree that having a toxic level of salt in the soil could worsen this affliction but I really doubt that is what is causing this.

Is there any reason you can say it is not a Fungus?

Rick I would not defoliate, I found that only weakened the tree and gave the ailment a leg up. In my layman words the tree seemed to rely on the continued energy created by the leaves to fight the fungus.
I am not sure spraying with Bravo this late in the season would be worth the risk of using such a nasty chemical either. I would recommend doing nothing fancy but manage their normal care with diligence. Without much top growth they may not use alot of water so be careful with watering habits.
I would say forget about having nice leaves this year. As long as they have a half decent amount of leaves (even severely damaged ones, any green left is making energy) left on the tree it will go dormant fairly content.
Plan on thourer winter hygiene and disease treatment as I stated above and look forward to a better year next year.

Maybe Nina has a different suggestion but that is mine

Dear Brett,

I was unaware that I had actually posted anything contrary to your opinion in this thread. In fact, I have specifically avoided commenting on this issue in a public manner due to the rabid responses it elicits from you; and my inability to convey any scientific concepts, or personal ideas to you. I fear your becoming increasingly paranoid about this fungus of yours.

If you look closely you will see my only response on this thread was to Ricky Keaton's maple photos. I think his maples are suffering from salt burn. I think this because I had similar leaf symptoms on a "Kashima" which was suffering from sodium toxicity.

Regards

Paul

Nothing Rabid Paul and nothing to fear just facing the facts of the issue!

so one reason for sodium toxicity could be from me foliage feeding or from me using softened water.
i am going to see my county extension office to see what they tell me about maybe this being a fungus among us!

Ricky,

I didn't say you had sodium toxicity, I said your leaves appear to be suffering salt burn. Yes, this can occur from overfeeding. I find japanese maples are very sensitive to salts. If you have access to an Ag extension officer take a water sample for an EC analysis, just because you can, he may be able to do a quick on the spot EC test. It will eliminate another unknown.

Brett,

"Nothing Rabid Paul and nothing to fear just facing the facts of the issue!"


I've thought about this for a while, and for the life of me, I do not know what you are saying.

Paul

Just wondering how everyone's trees were doing with this. Mine are hanging on but not pretty. The maples are decimated and raggedy, although the trident is better than the others, and I'm having problems with zelkova, apple, and pyracantha, maybe others as well.

I've gone through an entire spray bottle of Daconil and I cannot say for certain that it has had any effect.

Another symptom, related or not, is the new growth that comes out and manages to survive is now pale and yellowish.

I am beginning to consider the salt poisoning possibility. We have had almost zero rain here for the past 6-8 wks (we had some this past weekend, thankfully) along with record high temps, so the trees have been watered from the tap exclusively and profusely. If my water softener is a culprit, these are the perfect conditions for the problem to show itself. Also, I went back and checked my banking records and found that I added my water softener, after living with incredibly hard water for years, near the end of last July, about a month before seeing my first problems.

It wouldn't explain everything, such as why I seem to be seeing the problem in some landscape maples as well, but I am desperate at this point. So as annoying as it is, I am going to begin putting the softener into bypass mode and purging the line before I water with the hose now and see what happens.

Everyone needs to keep an eye on the calendar at this time of year.

The leaves of deciduous trees are getting old. Just like us old people, they start getting spots on their "skin". And the excessive heat we've had here in the Eastern USA hasn't helped slow the aging process either. (For us or them.) So many of your "problems" really aren't problems.

However, when spots or brown edges appear on a leaf that isn't automatically a sign of some dread disease. The first thing to do is to remove and destroy the affected leaf or leaves. By "destroy" I mean remove them from the area you bonsai grow in. The garbage can is fine. So is the burn pile if you live somewhere you can burn.

Then keep an eye on the new leaves. Avoid watering the leaves every day, if possible. (It is not possible for me because of my watering system, but I've had no leaf problems, either -- knock on wood.)

In the heat, full sun is probably not recommended for most broadleafed, deciduous trees. But bright shade, or full morning sun is probably OK.

Many leaf spots are caused by sucking insects -- the true bugs, mites, thrips, aphids, etc. Most of those are fairly easy to control.

In the summer, though, DO NOT USE any oils!!! If you do, you WILL have leaf problems. That includes Neem or dormant or light horticultural oils. The sun will hat the oil and cook the plant. In my personal opinion, Neem is dangerous to us and the environment; I would never use it. It is overkill for bonsai at any rate. A spray with a pyrenthrin in it (many houseplant sprays at Home Depot or nurseries are pyrethrin sprays) is sufficient to control any of them (and a spray of water into the foliage will take care of spider mites). Spray in the early evening for best results.

Some plants are prone to leaf spots and burned edges. We've already discussed Japanese maples. But the rose family -- apples, pears, hawthorns, plums, cherries, peaches, hackberry, cotoneaster, Potentilla, Mullberry, etc. -- almost all get spotty leaves at this time of year. Sweetgum is another. Elms are more susceptible to black spot in late summer and fall. There's no treatment that works at this time of year.

Just remove leaves and destroy.

But mostly, don't have a hissy when you spot a spot.

Generally good advice Jim, and may in fact be relevant to some of my trees. I won't belabor the point of how unusual the degradation is on the others as we've covered it already in depth. Been at this game for nearly 20 yrs now and I have a good idea of what's normal for late summer. Lordy.

Velodog,

How does your water softener work?

Paul

63pmp wrote:Velodog,

How does your water softener work?

Paul

Well generally speaking it exchanges sodium ions for calcium ions in the water stream by means of a bed of resin that the water flows through. So while the output water is softer (has less calcium) it also has proportionately higher sodium concentration. Given how high my initial calcium level is, the resulting sodium level could be correspondingly high limited by the capacity of the softener. The resin is periodically regenerated using a concentrated salt solution. The softener has a valve that allows me to bypass the resin bed. Is this what you were looking for?

Even the taps outside your house are connected to the softener? That could well be your problem. Before someone suggests you just let the water stand in a bucket, that won't help.

I suggest you call or visit your County Agricultural Extension Agent and ask him or her what to do about watering with softened water. There may be something they could recommend to precipitate the salts. My chemistry is much too far behind me to make any recommendations.

I know you've had no rain, but investing in a couple of rain barrels under your eves may help with the problem in the future. I'm afraid this won't be the last summer we have that's like this.

Yes the main outdoor taps are connected to the softener, except for the one in the barn, but that is too far away to use for watering the trees.

If this turns out to be the problem, again by way of testing using the bypass valve, I will replumb the outdoor tap I use for the trees. It actually wouldn't be excessively difficult given it's proximity to the water inlet in the house and the accessibility of the plumbing, and probably should be done anyway, regardless of it's impact on the bonsai. Just one more thing to fix.

i have the same problem with my maples and yes i have the same water softener so i by pass it now, i also used more turface in my soil this year which i think would hold more of the salts ( be it fertilizer or the water) as well.

Ricky have you seen an improvement in your Maples since you began bypassing your softener?

Your water softener could be your problem. I would stop using it.

Sodium is toxic to plants at not very high levels, and calcium is an essential element which helps plants to reduce sodium uptake. Ion exchange resins can be very effective at removing calcium and magnesium, it depends on the age of the resin and the speed at which water flows through the resin bed. So by swapping calcium for sodium you are increasing the risk of having too much sodium. Calcium is not toxic to plants, but it may cause magnesium deficiency if too high compared to magnesium. You need both these ions to combat sodium effectively.

This is a bit nerdy, but it is the ratio between calcium, magnesium and sodium in the water that is important. Sodium concentrations should not really exceed 70ppm in your water. Only a water test can give you the numbers so that you know exactly what you are putting on.

I would certainly get a comprehensive water test of your water which would also give other valuable information, such as chloride, alkalinity, iron, bicarbonates, SAR, pH and veyr importantly EC. The EC of the treated water will not change once it has been through the resin bed.

Paul

Velodog2 wrote:Ricky have you seen an improvement in your Maples since you began bypassing your softener?

yes, as far as no more brown tips.
but its getn late in the season and the leafs are startn to fade in color.

I've scrupulously avoided watering with softened water, and the drought and high temps have abated somewhat. However this is what my trident looks like this evening:



You can see the few mature leaves left continue to brown back from the tips until they fall off. Some full size leaves are growing on some of the branches to the left of the tree, but the two branches on the right are covered with minute little leaves no more than a quarter of an inch across that are curled and typically blacken and die before they harden off. This has been going on all summer and it's amazing this tree is still alive. As I said all of my maples have been doing this to one extent or another and some look far worse, although one, strangely, seems to have recently recovered along with a zelkova that wasn't doing well. I am at a complete loss.

It's been an awful summer here. I've lost 2 old Ponderosas with another on the way out. These are the first Ponderosas I've lost in over 10 yrs. I've lost an old spruce, hemlock, and a common juniper I'd had for 7 yrs. Many others aren't looking very good and I'm not looking forward to spring to see what manages to bud out again, or not. I won't be replacing these trees that's for sure.

Hi Velodog2

This is to be expected, the accumulated salts that cause the toxicity still remain in the plant. Plants have no way of excreting these salts, so while ever high temps and transpiration demand remains high, leaf burn continues.

I strongly recommend you get a water test done. The minimal testing would be an EC. It is very possible that the EC of your water is too high to grow plants like tridents. However at this point you do not know what cations and anions your water contains, what might be causing toxicities, and everybody is only guessing at what the problem is. Once you know what is in the water you can make informed decisions about what the problem is.

No doubt someone will say its a fungus, which may be true, but you still need to start the diagnosis with the basics and that is water quality.

Regards

Paul

Can you folks recommend someone to test water? I have similar problems with my tridents this summer.

Frank,

I don't know of any water testing lab's in your area, do a google search or phone directory. Look for a lab that is certified with a "standards" system such as NATA or ISO. It is some surety that the results are credible.

regards

Paul

Is this rust or some similar fungus on my Carpinus?

Are you on well water?

If you are on city water, you shouldn't really need to worry about odd chemicals. Public water systems routinely test their water for a whole host of undesirable chemicals and send the results to the state or the federal EPA. If your water is drinkable (no matter the taste or hardness) there shouldn't be anything in it that will damage plants -- Chlorine and Fluoride -- often required by local law -- will not hurt plants in the amounts put into drinking water.

If you are on a well, however, you probably should find a chemical laboratory to test your water. Your county health department will have names of reputable labs.

Andrija . . . your question probably should go ito another separate thread. There could be a number of causes -- weather, excessive sunlight, disease, insects, etc.

Hi, Andrija! I happen to know that Carpinus trees are very susceptible to water stress if you forget to water them. Don't ask me how I know this. But it could have been a hot dry day. It doesn't look like a disease: it looks like some abiotic cause. Watch the tree carefully.