Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Brett Summers on Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:34 am

Same here Nina. Symptoms where there for several years before I used anything on it. Last year was exceptionally bad which seems right being that it was reported as our worst year in 20 years for fungus due to heavy drought breaking rain.
I was also confused by the wide variety of species affected and although there was some variation of symptoms there was also a vast amount of similarities from species to species that it made me at least consider it was the same ailment.
As I stated someone else who had a trident affected the same way had it tested by someone such as yourself and it was positive for a fungus disease and the fungicide recommended definitely worked. This was evident by recovery shortly after use and return of the fungus when I stopped treatment as I was concerned with it's toxicity.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Nina on Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:27 pm

OK, how about maple anthracnose?

http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/dx/CB/m_anth.htm
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1280.pdf

If it were rainier, I'd be suggesting this seriously. In this weather, however, I'm not sure. I had seen some dogwood anthracnose this spring, so I suppose it's possible that what you're seeing was initiated in the spring. If so, you don't need to spray now.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Ricky Keaton on Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:10 pm





I am havin the same problem as well!

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:28 am

Anthracnose was my best guess as well Nina. I mentioned this on the Aussie forum and gave this link.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/fidls/anthracnose_east/fidl-ae.htm
It is very disappointing that the name of the disease was not past on when the pathology test was done but this is my best guess as to the symptoms.
We really have had a bad year for fungus here as Winter sets in I see fungus on various trees and plants around the garden coming out as the leaves die off.
Also i now see fungus everywhere pointing it out to many people on street trees and in their collection.

I agree about the not bothering spraying if you Guys are late in the season. I stopped spraying at the end of the season and just waited for the Autumn cold to get rid of the leaves. Now I am doing my best to clean the whole garden. Spraying with lime sulfur. I am considering giving the important trees a dose of Bravo early spring as they leaf out just to make sure they get a good start.

Would you recommend any other action? I have several feature trees in the yard that have also showen signs of this so I fear I may never be able to control it?

Brett Summers
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Ricky Keaton on Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:47 am

Is it to late in the year, mid July, to defoliate the maples and then treat with Bravo as the new growth starts?

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:48 am

Ricky,

To me, your maple appear to be suffering salt burn. There are several different reasons for this condition to occur.

Paul

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:51 pm

by Brett
Jim there has been many suggestions such as yours put to people with this. It makes no sense as collections that have been trained in the same place for years with no trouble are now desiccated by this.
As I said Paul you have given me this opinion on the Aussie website. Considering a pathology test found fungus, the treatment recommended worked and the fungus returned when treatment halted. Street trees surrounding my town where also affected. Collections that where not even fertilised where affected. Trees growing in full sun and extreme heat fared no different and some times better than those shaded. Well established collections that had always grown well where desiccated by this.
The affliction was wide spread over at least the state of NSW.

I can agree that having a toxic level of salt in the soil could worsen this affliction but I really doubt that is what is causing this.

Is there any reason you can say it is not a Fungus?

Rick I would not defoliate, I found that only weakened the tree and gave the ailment a leg up. In my layman words the tree seemed to rely on the continued energy created by the leaves to fight the fungus.
I am not sure spraying with Bravo this late in the season would be worth the risk of using such a nasty chemical either. I would recommend doing nothing fancy but manage their normal care with diligence. Without much top growth they may not use alot of water so be careful with watering habits.
I would say forget about having nice leaves this year. As long as they have a half decent amount of leaves (even severely damaged ones, any green left is making energy) left on the tree it will go dormant fairly content.
Plan on thourer winter hygiene and disease treatment as I stated above and look forward to a better year next year.

Maybe Nina has a different suggestion but that is mine Wink

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:14 am

Dear Brett,

I was unaware that I had actually posted anything contrary to your opinion in this thread. In fact, I have specifically avoided commenting on this issue in a public manner due to the rabid responses it elicits from you; and my inability to convey any scientific concepts, or personal ideas to you. I fear your becoming increasingly paranoid about this fungus of yours.

If you look closely you will see my only response on this thread was to Ricky Keaton's maple photos. I think his maples are suffering from salt burn. I think this because I had similar leaf symptoms on a "Kashima" which was suffering from sodium toxicity.

Regards

Paul

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Brett Summers on Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:48 pm

Nothing Rabid Paul and nothing to fear just facing the facts of the issue!

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Ricky Keaton on Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:47 am

so one reason for sodium toxicity could be from me foliage feeding or from me using softened water.
i am going to see my county extension office to see what they tell me about maybe this being a fungus among us!

Ricky Keaton
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:12 am

Ricky,

I didn't say you had sodium toxicity, I said your leaves appear to be suffering salt burn. Yes, this can occur from overfeeding. I find japanese maples are very sensitive to salts. If you have access to an Ag extension officer take a water sample for an EC analysis, just because you can, he may be able to do a quick on the spot EC test. It will eliminate another unknown.

Brett,

"Nothing Rabid Paul and nothing to fear just facing the facts of the issue!"


I've thought about this for a while, and for the life of me, I do not know what you are saying.

Paul

63pmp
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:42 pm

Just wondering how everyone's trees were doing with this. Mine are hanging on but not pretty. The maples are decimated and raggedy, although the trident is better than the others, and I'm having problems with zelkova, apple, and pyracantha, maybe others as well.

I've gone through an entire spray bottle of Daconil and I cannot say for certain that it has had any effect.

Another symptom, related or not, is the new growth that comes out and manages to survive is now pale and yellowish.

I am beginning to consider the salt poisoning possibility. We have had almost zero rain here for the past 6-8 wks (we had some this past weekend, thankfully) along with record high temps, so the trees have been watered from the tap exclusively and profusely. If my water softener is a culprit, these are the perfect conditions for the problem to show itself. Also, I went back and checked my banking records and found that I added my water softener, after living with incredibly hard water for years, near the end of last July, about a month before seeing my first problems.

It wouldn't explain everything, such as why I seem to be seeing the problem in some landscape maples as well, but I am desperate at this point. So as annoying as it is, I am going to begin putting the softener into bypass mode and purging the line before I water with the hose now and see what happens.

Velodog2
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  JimLewis on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:15 pm

Everyone needs to keep an eye on the calendar at this time of year.

The leaves of deciduous trees are getting old. Just like us old people, they start getting spots on their "skin". And the excessive heat we've had here in the Eastern USA hasn't helped slow the aging process either. (For us or them.) So many of your "problems" really aren't problems.

However, when spots or brown edges appear on a leaf that isn't automatically a sign of some dread disease. The first thing to do is to remove and destroy the affected leaf or leaves. By "destroy" I mean remove them from the area you bonsai grow in. The garbage can is fine. So is the burn pile if you live somewhere you can burn.

Then keep an eye on the new leaves. Avoid watering the leaves every day, if possible. (It is not possible for me because of my watering system, but I've had no leaf problems, either -- knock on wood.)

In the heat, full sun is probably not recommended for most broadleafed, deciduous trees. But bright shade, or full morning sun is probably OK.

Many leaf spots are caused by sucking insects -- the true bugs, mites, thrips, aphids, etc. Most of those are fairly easy to control.

In the summer, though, DO NOT USE any oils!!! If you do, you WILL have leaf problems. That includes Neem or dormant or light horticultural oils. The sun will hat the oil and cook the plant. In my personal opinion, Neem is dangerous to us and the environment; I would never use it. It is overkill for bonsai at any rate. A spray with a pyrenthrin in it (many houseplant sprays at Home Depot or nurseries are pyrethrin sprays) is sufficient to control any of them (and a spray of water into the foliage will take care of spider mites). Spray in the early evening for best results.

Some plants are prone to leaf spots and burned edges. We've already discussed Japanese maples. But the rose family -- apples, pears, hawthorns, plums, cherries, peaches, hackberry, cotoneaster, Potentilla, Mullberry, etc. -- almost all get spotty leaves at this time of year. Sweetgum is another. Elms are more susceptible to black spot in late summer and fall. There's no treatment that works at this time of year.

Just remove leaves and destroy.

But mostly, don't have a hissy when you spot a spot.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:45 pm

Generally good advice Jim, and may in fact be relevant to some of my trees. I won't belabor the point of how unusual the degradation is on the others as we've covered it already in depth. Been at this game for nearly 20 yrs now and I have a good idea of what's normal for late summer. Lordy.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:20 am

Velodog,

How does your water softener work?

Paul

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:41 pm

63pmp wrote:Velodog,

How does your water softener work?

Paul

Well generally speaking it exchanges sodium ions for calcium ions in the water stream by means of a bed of resin that the water flows through. So while the output water is softer (has less calcium) it also has proportionately higher sodium concentration. Given how high my initial calcium level is, the resulting sodium level could be correspondingly high limited by the capacity of the softener. The resin is periodically regenerated using a concentrated salt solution. The softener has a valve that allows me to bypass the resin bed. Is this what you were looking for?

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:33 pm

Even the taps outside your house are connected to the softener? That could well be your problem. Before someone suggests you just let the water stand in a bucket, that won't help.

I suggest you call or visit your County Agricultural Extension Agent and ask him or her what to do about watering with softened water. There may be something they could recommend to precipitate the salts. My chemistry is much too far behind me to make any recommendations.

I know you've had no rain, but investing in a couple of rain barrels under your eves may help with the problem in the future. I'm afraid this won't be the last summer we have that's like this.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:21 pm

Yes the main outdoor taps are connected to the softener, except for the one in the barn, but that is too far away to use for watering the trees.

If this turns out to be the problem, again by way of testing using the bypass valve, I will replumb the outdoor tap I use for the trees. It actually wouldn't be excessively difficult given it's proximity to the water inlet in the house and the accessibility of the plumbing, and probably should be done anyway, regardless of it's impact on the bonsai. Just one more thing to fix.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Ricky Keaton on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:58 pm

i have the same problem with my maples and yes i have the same water softener so i by pass it now, i also used more turface in my soil this year which i think would hold more of the salts ( be it fertilizer or the water) as well.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:41 pm

Ricky have you seen an improvement in your Maples since you began bypassing your softener?

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:31 pm

Your water softener could be your problem. I would stop using it.

Sodium is toxic to plants at not very high levels, and calcium is an essential element which helps plants to reduce sodium uptake. Ion exchange resins can be very effective at removing calcium and magnesium, it depends on the age of the resin and the speed at which water flows through the resin bed. So by swapping calcium for sodium you are increasing the risk of having too much sodium. Calcium is not toxic to plants, but it may cause magnesium deficiency if too high compared to magnesium. You need both these ions to combat sodium effectively.

This is a bit nerdy, but it is the ratio between calcium, magnesium and sodium in the water that is important. Sodium concentrations should not really exceed 70ppm in your water. Only a water test can give you the numbers so that you know exactly what you are putting on.

I would certainly get a comprehensive water test of your water which would also give other valuable information, such as chloride, alkalinity, iron, bicarbonates, SAR, pH and veyr importantly EC. The EC of the treated water will not change once it has been through the resin bed.

Paul

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Ricky Keaton on Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:13 am

Velodog2 wrote:Ricky have you seen an improvement in your Maples since you began bypassing your softener?

yes, as far as no more brown tips.
but its getn late in the season and the leafs are startn to fade in color.

Ricky Keaton
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  Velodog2 on Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:48 am

I've scrupulously avoided watering with softened water, and the drought and high temps have abated somewhat. However this is what my trident looks like this evening:



You can see the few mature leaves left continue to brown back from the tips until they fall off. Some full size leaves are growing on some of the branches to the left of the tree, but the two branches on the right are covered with minute little leaves no more than a quarter of an inch across that are curled and typically blacken and die before they harden off. This has been going on all summer and it's amazing this tree is still alive. As I said all of my maples have been doing this to one extent or another and some look far worse, although one, strangely, seems to have recently recovered along with a zelkova that wasn't doing well. I am at a complete loss.

It's been an awful summer here. I've lost 2 old Ponderosas with another on the way out. These are the first Ponderosas I've lost in over 10 yrs. I've lost an old spruce, hemlock, and a common juniper I'd had for 7 yrs. Many others aren't looking very good and I'm not looking forward to spring to see what manages to bud out again, or not. I won't be replacing these trees that's for sure.

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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  63pmp on Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Hi Velodog2

This is to be expected, the accumulated salts that cause the toxicity still remain in the plant. Plants have no way of excreting these salts, so while ever high temps and transpiration demand remains high, leaf burn continues.

I strongly recommend you get a water test done. The minimal testing would be an EC. It is very possible that the EC of your water is too high to grow plants like tridents. However at this point you do not know what cations and anions your water contains, what might be causing toxicities, and everybody is only guessing at what the problem is. Once you know what is in the water you can make informed decisions about what the problem is.

No doubt someone will say its a fungus, which may be true, but you still need to start the diagnosis with the basics and that is water quality.

Regards

Paul

63pmp
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Re: Please help identify a "persistant" leaf problem: mineral, roots, fungus?

Post  FrankP999 on Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:00 am

Can you folks recommend someone to test water? I have similar problems with my tridents this summer.

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