Trident tale of woe

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Trident tale of woe

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:03 pm

While not a complete casualty of the winter, my chuhin (about 16" height) Trident maple is seriously struggling this year. It has put on very little leaf and some branches have put out nothing at all. Curiously enough these latter are not entirely dead.

Any recommendations as to how to nurse it back to some semblance of health? Feed or not feed? Water sparingly or plentifully? Shade/partial sun/full sun?






_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:32 pm

Drat!

Have you had a good look at the roots? Was it repotted this spring? Did the rootball get frozen solid at any point last winter? Is there any akadama in the mix?

If there is a problem with the roots, you could try getting it onto a heated cable and mist the top regularly. I've seen them brought back from almost 0 roots by treating them like a giant cutting.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:37 pm

Yes it probably did get frozen at least once over the winter despite being in the glasshouse (unheated).

It is in an predominantly akadama soil but I didnt repot it this spring.

Was told by someone to put it in full sun where it has been for about 3 weeks. There has been some leaf growth in that time, but not a lot.

Roots seemed fairly OK at least on the surface. Do you think I should lift it intact out its pot and see what lies beneath?

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:42 pm

I'd question the advice about full sun, given that the roots may not be functioning.

Yes definitely get it out of the pot. I wouldn't mind betting all the fine feeder roots have "exploded" when frozen. If there's any sign of mushy, rotten or foul smelling roots, it's time for an emergency repot. Wash the roots clean, trim away all dead parts to healthy wood and get it into a mix with no akadama. I'd definitely try to find someone who has a heated cable setup. If you can't find one locally bring the tree to Tony or me. While it's alive at the top, there's still hope.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Michael T on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:04 pm

I made the mistake of putting some of my trees out this April in the middle of a cold snap where temps dropped into the mid twenties. I didn't check the weather reports and put them out the first night of the snap. They were in a sunroom before that. I thought I lost all of them. They are all in full leaf now, but I did lose some branches on some, but for the most part they are all look and appear to be doing pretty well now.

My first concern when it happened was the root zones. So, I pulled them from their pots and removed the dead roots. The damage wasn't that bad in most, except one (it's recovering the slowest). I put in fresh soil in the areas where I removed the dead roots. Instead of feeding them high nitrogen fertilizers, I fed them low nitrogen fertilizers with high potassium, phosphorous contents. Seems to have worked. I've only recently begun to feed them nitrogen again.

The fact that it's pushing new growth is a good sign. Its a better sign if its actually elongating. It tells me you have active live roots. Still I might lift them and remove the obvious dead roots if possible to do without disturbing the healthy roots. On mine it was pretty easy to do because the dead zones were obvious and all in one area. Plus, the time of year was still appropriate for repotting.

I should add that if you do find soggy stinking roots, you really don't have a choice. That will spread to the healthy roots.

Michael T
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:09 pm

It has been an odd winter and spring all over. This tree -- Maclura pomifera (Osage orange) was leafless last Monday. It is always the last to leaf out in the spring, but this was the longest wait ever. I was on the verge of chucking it several times, but there continued to be green under the bark on all branches -- though there was a LOT of tip dieback. It had spent a considerable amount of time frozen slid in its pot this winter, though I figured it should be fine as they're hardy from zone 4 and I'm in 7-8.

It was in a smaller pot. I lifted it in late March and found a few mushy roots. I got rid of those, found a larger pot, poured in almost 100% Turface, added a LOT of Bone Meal, dosed it with 1-4-1.2 fish emulsion then worried for weeks.

On Wednesday, it started to leaf out. It will need to grow itself some new branch tips (and an entire new branch or two) but it seems fine. Guess I'll give it a bit more protection next year. Here it is on the first day of summer.


_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Dave Martin on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:12 pm

This seems to raise once more the Akadama debate. There have been dire warnings from our much loved Peter Adams about the 'red death' who repeatedly predicted such results. These have been received with derision from some quarters. The last severe winter I suggest has wreaked it's worse. Akadama is fine provided it is kept dry in the winter and the tree sheltered against severe inclement weather. Naturally, even if using a non Akadama based mix one still has to protect ones trees from severe frosts

Personally I think that Akadama is a Japanese solution to a lack of landfill sites and profitable as well.

Recently in Bonsai Focus a Japanese master asked why it was Europeans were using Japanese soil instead of their own.

The question posed by one old hand (Geoff Crowe of Phoenix) is what did we plant in before Akadama?

Dave Martin
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:46 pm

Well. I've had a look.

It's a healthy enough root system - no black uns, no foul smell, and only a slight bit of girdling round the pot but not really badly so. Only thing is it was a bit wet despite my not having watered it today and it sitting in temperatures of 17-21C over the course of the day.

I also noticed that the tree is in predominantly kiryu and not akadama. I've hardly touched the root ball as a result but have put it into a different container with a mix of what kyodama I had left and a little organic matter.

Kev, I'm not sure underheating would be of any use if the root system is OK. What do you think? It's back against a south facing wall so it'll get partial shade but a fair bit of heat.


Last edited by fiona on Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : beacuse you always see the spelling error a nanosecond after hitting "Send")

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:16 pm

The soil stays wet because there are no leaves to act as the pump for transpiration. Lay off watering at all until the soil is pretty dry. As leaves appear, the pump will start working and you can resume whatever your regular watering regime is.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:49 pm

That's very good news. I agree with Jim. Dunno why it suffered so, if the roots are all intact.

The trident I had planted in the ground for seven or eight years (prior to this last hard winter) never suffered any major trauma and it was frosted quite a few times. Last winter it was in an unheated greenhouse and it got very cold and is still doing fine. Another that is still in the ground came through the winter without even shoot tip damage, which I would have expected.

I'm perplexed.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:26 am

Wauw.. That is a really beautiful trident tree! Smile

Is the problem with the tree solved or
is it still struggling?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Over wintering Tridents

Post  LANCE on Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:16 pm



This is one of my Tridents, it already bears the natural shari after a particular severe winter a few years ago.
It had been planted in Akadama and given some protection over winter.
After last years bad winter I checked the roots and they were badly damaged.
I cut the roots back hard removing all the black dead material.
I washed off all the Akadama off and planted it in an Akadama free mixture in the smaller composite material pot above.
It was placed in a sheltered position, not full sun, to recover. Watering was carefully monitored.
Growth was not as good as in previous years, especially on the left lower branch which had to be cut back.
I checked and repotted al my Tridents, some were worse that others, but all survived.
Here we are again, winter has arrived early in the UK, much of the country covered in snow. Last night it was -8 degrees.
The tree is in the garage with my other Tridents and Satsuki, under fleece.
The company car is outside under the snow.
Phil

LANCE
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trident tale of woe

Post  Sponsored content Today at 3:26 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum