Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:39 pm

Just posted a comment on Facebook regarding a very beautiful and powerful Cork Oak. Too often these days we see deciduous trees styled as Pines or Junipers. I'm sure this forum has probably gone over this ground a thousand times( I can see Jim's eyes rolling already) but for newer members, it may make a good discussion.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  AlainK on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:52 pm

will baddeley wrote:Just posted a comment on Facebook regarding a very beautiful and powerful Cork Oak.

Er... I have about 150 "friends" on facebook, and i still don't know how to use it : it seems such a mess, with so many trivial info piling up on a page in SMS language, it seems so superficial, so reducing, so vain in a way... Embarassed

I'm afraid I'm too old for that, I'm not a 15 year-old giggling girl spending most of her time on her mobile/cell phone speaking in a language i don't even understand in my own language Shocked

will baddeley wrote:Too often these days we see deciduous trees styled as Pines or Junipers. I'm sure this forum has probably gone over this ground a thousand times( I can see Jim's eyes rolling already) but for newer members, it may make a good discussion.

Hear, hear!

I can't agree with you more...

Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool

AlainK
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:58 am

The tree in question has a trunk to die for. Full of deadwood, character and dramatic taper. I have asked the owner/ Artist for permission to use the photo. Fingers crossed. Very Happy

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:16 am

This is the tree that I posted a reply to. Zino Rongo, from Italy has very kindly said I could use his photo for discussion. As mentioned before, this is a stunning piece of material ( Quercus Suber I think?) and as bonsai go, is top drawer. Zino is very talented and has won many awards for his bonsai. My problem with this tree though is the canopy. Is this too much like a Pine or Juniper?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Kev Bailey on Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:03 am

Stunning tree, but I agree that the slightly pointy top doesn't really look right for an oak. I would take a few simple steps to round off the top of the canopy. As we can't see inside, I am wondering if it has been designed to conceal a chop?

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:04 pm

Here is a lighter image which shows the structure of the branches.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Kev Bailey on Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:16 pm

Thanks Will. Looks to me like a bit of wiring would sort it.

_________________
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

Kev Bailey
Admin


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Peter E. on Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:17 pm

My problem with this tree though is the canopy. Is this too much like a Pine or Juniper?

Will, perhaps the problem is you are styling the tree as an Oak whereas the italians are styling them as "Bonsai".

It is the same old argument of art versus nature.

Peter E.
Member


Back to top Go down

Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:33 am

Very rough sketch of how i imagine an Oak to look

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:44 pm

Thankyou Alain, Kev and Peter for your input. Obviously no one else has any opinion on this subject? Bonsai that look like trees or bonsai that look like bonsai. Maybe in a Mediterranean climate,trees don't grow like more temperate trees? Is it not just as artistic to style as a tree should look?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  AlainK on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:07 am

I think this bonsai is exceptional.

Quercus suber don't grow in my region, I've seen many of them though when on holiday in the south, but none of them looked like this one, even from a far distance Wink

But I find this bonsai really... exceptional.

Will, I like your drawing a lot, but I think you miss a lot of the characteristics of the trunk which to me is what makes it an outstanding piece, no matter what the canopy looks like. It's a GREAT bonsai as it is...

AlainK
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  anttal63 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:23 am

Will i am 100% with you on this!!! It miss's the 10 out of 10 for me, because of this conflict. However this is that good a rip off of a conifer, it gets 9.5 out of 10 and im gonna turn a blind eye. Razz cheers

anttal63
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:37 pm

AlainK wrote:

Will, I like your drawing a lot, but I think you miss a lot of the characteristics of the trunk which to me is what makes it an outstanding piece, no matter what the canopy looks like. It's a GREAT bonsai as it is...
Hello Alain, my drawing wasn't about the trunk, it was about the branches and canopy.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:44 pm

anttal63 wrote:Will i am 100% with you on this!!! It miss's the 10 out of 10 for me, because of this conflict. However this is that good a rip off of a conifer, it gets 9.5 out of 10 and im gonna turn a blind eye. Razz cheers

I could have chosen another example but didn't want to start slagging peoples trees. As mentioned, this tree is superb but there are a lot of trees styled in this way. Thanks for your comments.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  wabashene on Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:34 pm

Hi Will,

The issue is slightly confused in that much (50%?) of the material used for bonsai - and more specifically the shrubby stuff such as buxus, cotoneaster, lonicera - never gets tree sized in any case, so de facto, you are styling it to look like something else.

Similarly, there shouldn't really be a problem therefore, in styling material that grows large to look other than it would naturally.

The discussion would seem to be more about styling in the classical Japanese way or in what is often termed naturalistic.

Slavish adherence to naturalistic styling would result in tall, beanpole straight larch with wheelspoke branches for instance as that is how 90% appear in nature around Hampshire at least

If we hadn't known that this was an oak would there be an issue?

I actually popped a small hawthorn I dug a few years ago into a pot this year and it looks just like the 20ft hawthorns that grow around my rugby club fields from whence it was dug.

However, I don't feel that it is a very good example of "bonsai", despite it looking "natural", as I kind of like the classical Japanese style.

I also remember Walter Pall's comment on Tony T's Fat Guy hawthorn – provocative as ever,

“Looks good, like a bonsai. Could have looked like a tree too.”

Thks

TimR

wabashene
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  bonsai monkey on Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:40 pm

Hi Will,
Great tree and a great subject!! I’m with you and Kev re the crown and pad positioning (great drawing btw) but are we just seeing it from an “English Oak” perspective? Although an outstanding tree for “me” the overall image is not right but I cannot fault it as a fantastic Bonsai. I agree that we should not try and make all trees look similar, that’s where your own individual artistic talent comes in, and also to be so radically removed from its natural “habit” but where do you draw the line?. There are some wonderful trees about that do do this but not many that many.

Look's like I've been beaten to the punch on this but I would like to share my slant and maybe get some constructive feedback!!
Now here’s the rub (for me anyway). As many of you know many of my trees could be looked upon as “glorified topiary” but where should we take “inspiration from nature” for some of the more shrubby plants we use? Cotoneaster, Box, Privet, Lonicera (Field Maple, Hawthorn & Yew to a lesser degree) are all MAINLY hedging material so what “piers” do they have to look up to? OK, many of these shrubs could be seen as “poor man’s bonsai” compared to the true classics (that’s probably where I fit in) so are we wrong to look to other species for a role model for our little lost friends? I’ve got a Shohin Lonicera that, when finished, will have the silhouette resembling a small, powerful Satsuki Azalea (mainly because the stocky trunk and branch placement lends itself to it) but am I wrong to peruse this path?

As usual, more questions than answers from me, but I hope that you can see where I am coming from and have not gone totally “off thread”. A darkened room for me me thinks!!
Okk, Okk,
Simon

bonsai monkey
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Peter E. on Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:37 pm

bonsai monkey wrote: I’ve got a Shohin Lonicera that, when finished, will have the silhouette resembling a small, powerful Satsuki Azalea (mainly because the stocky trunk and branch placement lends itself to it) but am I wrong to peruse this path?

Simon

Not at all Simon. The problem with "Bonsai" in the U.K. seems to revolve around growing trees that look natural, when the real purpose of "Bonsai" is ART.
They all go on about the Japenese speciems but when did you see one of those in real life.
If you have a Lonicera that you are growing in the style of an "azeala" that's great. At least you are recogniseing a style.
An artist will use what material he or she has at their disposal to create their art.
I also have a Lonicera shohin that i am developing that could be described as "azeala" style but that is not how i started it. Sometimes, trees just evolve from a base.

Peter E.
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Guest on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:33 am

Peter E. wrote:
bonsai monkey wrote: I’ve got a Shohin Lonicera that, when finished, will have the silhouette resembling a small, powerful Satsuki Azalea (mainly because the stocky trunk and branch placement lends itself to it) but am I wrong to peruse this path?

Simon

Not at all Simon. The problem with "Bonsai" in the U.K. seems to revolve around growing trees that look natural, when the real purpose of "Bonsai" is ART.
They all go on about the Japenese speciems but when did you see one of those in real life.
If you have a Lonicera that you are growing in the style of an "azeala" that's great. At least you are recogniseing a style.
An artist will use what material he or she has at their disposal to create their art.
I also have a Lonicera shohin that i am developing that could be described as "azeala" style but that is not how i started it. Sometimes, trees just evolve from a base.
I'd be interested to know what "Azalea style" looks like? Are bonsai styled like trees not art? Some contradiction in your first couple of sentences.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  kauaibonsai on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:34 am

my tongue in cheek two cents. what does a pine, juniper or azalea bonsai form actually look like ? I 've seen pines, junipers and azaleas trained in every form imaginable and then some ! as to the italian oak, considering the orientation of this old and beautiful collected trunk, I think mr rongo made the right choice when he designed the top.

kauaibonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  bonsai monkey on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:58 am

Hi Peter,
The image I'm hoping to end up with is somewhere between these 2 pictures.
Would this sort of image suit the species??





I have a picture on the wall at home that is my inspiration but am too shy to post the actual tree yet. It's growing like the clappers (2 "full" haircuts in 2 months) but I still need some of the branches to fill out. I am taking progress shots and am looking to put something up on here later in the year.

Okk, Okk,
Simon


bonsai monkey
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Peter E. on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:26 pm

Simon, i will look forward to seeing your progress pictures.
They fill out very quickly to form the shape you want but need more time to get the branch seperation to make them look old.

Peter E.
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Cat amongst the Pigeons!!

Post  Sponsored content Today at 6:57 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum