The cut stone : THE LAKE

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The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  trantanhung_nt on Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:09 pm

Hi friends ,
I am often emotional... when i see the lake nature .
And i did cut out the stone the following ... Do you tell possession conception you ??? Affectionately yours :

Weight : 1,350 Kg .


Weight : 3,250 Kg .
Thank you and regards .


Last edited by trantanhung_nt on Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  mathias on Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:59 pm

I'm sorry but I think that suiseki is an traditionnal art, with specific rules. It's the vision that we have in France, Italy and Spain (and slovaky ?).

If we cut a stone, it's not a suiseki. A beautiful stone, OK. Not a suiseki..... Wink

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  chansen on Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:45 pm

I think this is a bit of over-simplification of the cutting issue. From what I have read, the decision to cut or not cut is a debate held in circles not just in the Western world, but also in Japan. So to say that 'Japanese don't cut stones' is not quite accurate. To paraphrase Janet Nakajima (blog post found here for reference: http://suisekiart.com/2008/03/09/to-cut-or-not-to-cut/), there are some that feel that cutting the stone damages the 'spirit' of the stone. While others look at it as a purely aesthetic decision, and will make the best artistic decision based on the stone. Of those that feel like cutting is acceptable, almost all seem to agree that it must results in a very good stone (one that fits all of the other aesthetic qualities of fine suiseki). She also mentions that those that do cut stones in Japan will go through great effort to ensure the bottom of the stone does not appear to be cut. I also recall seeing/reading about Luciana Queirolo (I think, although it may have been someone else, I apologize if I am incorrectly attributing this) going through similar lengths on a stone that she cut, which included a metal wire brush to rough the bottom of the stone, and an acid treatment.

So, going so far to say that a stone is definitively not suiseki because it is cut is a little over-the-top for me. I am still a bit of a fence sitter on whether I would cut a stone or not. I have yet to encounter a stone that I felt needed to be cut, but I wouldn't make the statement that I will never find one either.

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The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:30 pm

Based on my personal experience I would bet my life savings that I have never attended a major Chinese or Japanese stone exhibition without seeing several cut and manipulated stones.
Don't buy into the hollier than thou attitude of the Nippon Suiseki Association; very few people do.

Sincerely yours. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Peter Aradi

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  mathias on Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:12 pm

Hello Paradi,

I'm sorry but I'm not sure to understand correctly your post, my english is not very good.
I know that now, some japoneses cut stones.... However, I have read, in my "bible", The Japanese Art Of Stone Appreciation: Suiseki And Its Use With Bonsai (Covello, Vincent T.), that stones for suiseki are non-cut stones...
It's just my point of view ! For me, it's too "easy" to cut a stone to make a suiseki. A suiseki is "precious" in the heart of a collector because the stone is beautiful and because the stone is intact (so, difficult to find, happinnes when you find it etc...).
best regards
mathias

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Kev Bailey on Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:14 pm

No one said it was suiseki. In fact it was introduced very honestly as "The cut stone:" This part of the forum is for all sorts of stones, not just suiseki. That's why we called it what we did. So please go easy.

Cutting is a contentious issue which has been debated many times and it is one of those decisions that we each have to make for ourselves.

In this case cutting has produced a very nice viewing stone, that would otherwise be part of a rock.

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  mathias on Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:32 am

Ok Kev, no problem. No agressivity in my post, just a point of view.... I'm agree with you.
mathias

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The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Ka Pabling on Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:08 am

Is there a way for suiseki to be separated from the other stones,in this forum?

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The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Ka Pabling on Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:17 am

paradi wrote:Based on my personal experience I would bet my life savings that I have never attended a major Chinese or Japanese stone exhibition without seeing several cut and manipulated stones.
Don't buy into the hollier than thou attitude of the Nippon Suiseki Association; very few people do.

Sincerely yours. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

Peter Aradi


Hi Peter, could you reconsider rephrasing this?

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The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:51 am

OK. Here is a simple statistics:
In Japan the Nippon Suiseki Association have about 300 members.
The stone lovers association have more than 30,000 members.
The first one pretends to follow strict rules, the second one accepts "beautiful stones."
There are several Japanese expert craftsmen who can cut stones and disguise it. They almost make a living at it.
Buyers who are not experts can easily buy these so called "natural suiseki" at high prices.
In China it is even worst. My estimate is that 95% of so called natural Chinese stones are misidentified and/or modified and/or cut.
Please direct all additional questions to me by email as I don't want to spoil the general myth of "virgin" stones on this forum.

Cheers.
Peter Aradi

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Kev Bailey on Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:04 am

padychitan wrote:Is there a way for suiseki to be separated from the other stones,in this forum?

Yes, in your mind. Very Happy

I feel that any other way could lead to greater problems, distinctions being argued and enforcement impossible. It would be like trying to separate out shohin from bonsai.

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Ka Pabling on Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:27 am

You are right Kev, we will be creating more problems, we cant even agree whether to cut,to polish etc.etc so better just leave it to our own judgement, anyway what is important is the way we appreciate the stones

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Cut stone : the lake .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:15 am

Hi Forum and Friends ,
Thank you all , thank you all for yours posts ,
Cutting was one of my choices ... for the purpose i want to make a stone of only cosmetic ...
As i have difined : because i love the lake nature , i had to cut stone natural lakes ( i do not have a different intent )
Again , many thanks to you all,many thanks ADMIN .
HUNG- TRAN .

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Chris Cochrane on Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:51 pm

Hi Trantanhung.

The Covello/Yoshimura original text in English avoids the question of cutting a stone's bottom.

Nippon Suiseki Association’s position on suiseki cutting is that it is allowed. Seiji Morimae (an NSA director) notes that it is important that the mounted stone not look cut, and that seems good advice for stones which are accepted for cutting. NSA President & spokesperson Arishige Matsuura speaks of allowances and differentiation between cut & uncut stones repeatedly, but he doesn't deny them as suiseki.

In a Kinbon article, Matsuura recommends choosing landscape view stones for cutting only when the scene represented is unlikely to be found in a stone with a natural bottom. The example he illustrates is an island stone with deep coves and mountainous island feet running out at relatively shallow angles in several directions; that would be a rare find in a naturally-contoured stone. Matsuura speaks of a cut stone's value being decreased 70% by the cut, yet he still recommends the bottom be processed to accord with the contour of the stone's top-- see lntl. Symposium on Bonsai & Suiseki, Proceedings 2002, pp. 204-205, Points #5 & 8. He notes processing the bottom before aging the stone (ISB&S Proceedings 2002). He noted in the first Intl. Stone Symposium (2002, Hershey PA USA), that stones to be cut near their waistline should be cut below the waist & rounded for daiza-fitting or tray-placement to appear most natural.

Vietnam has established a modern stone enthusiasm which appears largely independent of suiseki and Chinese scholar stone traditions as well as independent of modern Japanese & Chinese stone enthusiasm. In arguably being independent in style & in choices of stones, Vietnamese collectors are perhaps more artistic than slavishly following foreign guidance in mounting. In Potomac Viewing Stone Group meeting on the USA East Coast, one collector of Vietnamese stones insist on Vietnamese mounting including bright-white, fine sand for tray display & Vietnamese-styling of carved wood seats. Another imports stones from Vietnam & has a celebrated American carver of Japanese-style daiza create seating.

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  vlado on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:23 pm

Dear all.
I think that it is very simple to create a daiza for a cut stone, but it is not a right suiseki art. In this case the daiza can be made very fast. When I am creating the daiza for uncut stone , I put the stone maybe thousand times on the wood, until the stone fits on the daiza very precisely. I thing that there must be a piece of my spirit, my skills , my patience, my feeling in this art.
This is my opinion for a cut stones presented as suiseki.

vlado

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Chris Cochrane on Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:52 am

On the road to stone appreciation (from Issa, 1763-1827)...
Soaked in the rain
A daimyo passes
By my warm kotatsu.

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The cut stone : the lake .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:53 pm

Hi Chris Cochrane,
Hi Vlado ,
Welcome to your Forum and All ,
I have read many times each article... and from them , I know everyone"s appreciation of the cut stone .
I thank many All .
Although I have not hear any reviews on the LANDSCAPE THE LAKE of me .
Regards to you .
HUNG-TRAN

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  mathias on Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 am

vlado wrote:Dear all.
I think that it is very simple to create a daiza for a cut stone, but it is not a right suiseki art. In this case the daiza can be made very fast. When I am creating the daiza for uncut stone , I put the stone maybe thousand times on the wood, until the stone fits on the daiza very precisely. I thing that there must be a piece of my spirit, my skills , my patience, my feeling in this art.
This is my opinion for a cut stones presented as suiseki.

vlado

I have exactly the same "feeling" than vlado...

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Re: The cut stone: THE LAKE

Post  qseki on Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:34 pm

Hi All,

I've just come back from EBA ESA Congress 2010 in Zurich, and I'm attonished by the large amount of entries for this topic in so a few days, though the mainstream of the bottom-cutting debate is being avoided by me since a long time and I'm not willing to re-enter. I will only refer two personal statements:
- the decrease in economic value due to cutting is market, not art; it doesn't matter to me which is the money value of my stones (once I have afforded to buy, when it is the case), but the affection and contemplative values;
- please look at any Japanese book or catalogue on suiseki, at your choice: I will likely point you more than a 30 per cent stones seemingly bottom-cut, to say the less; of course, I will fail in some cases, for bad or good, but on avarage, the final result will be this in most cases.

There have been two issued that catched my attention:

1. THE PRESENTED STONE

I like the stone in shape, colour and texture. As I have not seen the uncut material, I'm not sure, but the cut seems to be effected at the widest level. Agreeing with Matsuura, it would have been better to cut 5mm (1/5") below that level to improve a 'natural' look. Of course the bottom outline is to be smoothed and curved inwards: this prevents cracking and adjustment between stone and stand (even when the stand is a suiban). Anyway, congratulations (and envy) for the finding.

2. CUSTOM-MADE DAIZA

In history, most Chinese and Japanese stone lovers did not ever make a stand (daiza or shizuo) for any stone. On the other hand, the mere fact of sleeping with a stone is not likely to make it a living couple (excuse for the bad joke). Furthermore, it seems that some colleagues reduce the difficulty in making daiza only to vase carving, how an unfortunate man I am! I have some unfinished stands for several years, because I am not able to decide about the appropiate shape (by the way, I have also stones to start with since several years, because I have not yet decided about their best position or whether to cut bottom or not: it is a truly painful process).
However, if you want to be more time to be in close touch with the stone, even if it is bottom-flat (natural or cut), you can always try to carve the vase with hand tools: it sometimes takes even morte time than for uneven-bottom stones, I can assure you.
On the other hand, I think the key point is not how long a daiza has needed to be finished, but how properly it is fitted to the stone (stability, contour-adjustment, feet placing, side profile, proper thickness, delicate sanding, staining and subtle shining: it is a bit more than carving the vase. And then, a few months or years later, you will be considering whether to make a different daiza according to your feelings and preferences at that new moment.
I think often that making daiza is only the start point for true suiseki making.
Warm regards,
Jesús

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The cut stone : The Lake .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:40 am

Hi Friends ,
I noted : Ihave been the good teacher for his good article .
Thank many Forum and All for you .
Regards .
Hi Chris Cochrane ,
I do not understand the poem of you . ( daimyo ? _ Kotatsu ? )
You can make me understand it ?
Thank you .

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  Chris Cochrane on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:26 pm

Hi Hung-Tran... Please feel free to call me "Chris," which is informal & friendly. I hope "Hung-Tran" is the way to address you as a stone friend. You asked about the Issa poem.

Here is a modified version of Issa's poem:
Soaked in the rain
A provincial lord passes
By my toasty leg-warming utensil.
Issa was a Japanese poet famed for haiku poetry; he died in 1827. He was speaking for a poet inside a room where his feet and legs have been warmed by a kotatsu-- a quilt thrown over a wood stand which covers a heating device/brazier. The poet was watching the "lord of a Japanese province" (daimyo) pass. Since provincial lords were seldom seen outside of courtly residences (therefore, not in view of a relaxing poet), the daimyo was likely traveling between Edo & his home province. Daimyo (especially those forced to swear allegiance to the nation's military leader/shogun as opposed to loyal retainers & family members) were required to maintain alternate attendence at the capital/Edo. People at lesser rank than samurai would normally bow when they saw the sign of a daimyo on his way to or from the capital.

The daimyo had no choice but to travel & closely obey the shogun's commands. If his land produced 200 or more koku (one koku = ~180 liters/45 gallons) of rice, he was required to have 120-130 foot soldiers & 250-300 servants and porters on his journey. The cost of maintaining these retinues helped keep each daimyo depleted of resources necessary to mount an army. The government would decide on which days a daimyo could travel. While wielding much power & authority, the daimyo's life lacked a certain spontaneity.

The provincial lord could not stop to avoid the rain and warm himself as the poet had.

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

Post  trantanhung_nt on Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:42 am

Hi CHRIS COCHRANE ,
Through all of this answers ... I understand and love poems of ISSA ...
I do not like the DAIMYO .
I just like to be ( devenir ) good player SUISEKI stone .
Regards .

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Re: The cut stone : THE LAKE

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