BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  littleart-fx on Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:35 pm

Hi!

As posted in another thread!

now same reply.

It is nice thinking u share here,..
As for me,.....sculptural design lays within the growing habit of the tree.
You talk about species witch are locally here in Europe.
I would reckon other species are available as seen!

As in statements,....bonsai as sculptural art,.....i would say no.
Sculptural art is made of dead material,....bonsai rather is like poetry given borders to evolve,....like i can say "bite me" up here.....it lives on!
Poetry is tolerance in words to view or read, and keeps on going!
It grows and is,....a sculpture off words given full sentence thriving on language and made by tolerated minds made by society!
For me bonsai,....is bending witch is given words as in verbs, verbs as in sentences that makes language,....and any one has its own.
Just the interaction between given (the tree) and spoken word in a pot.
And yes that evolves and grows!

my humble opinion in bad English!


maestro,.....live the dream as i do,....and thanks for these kind words! in bonsai wonder land.

machiel from tiny little holland,....grtz m

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:43 am

It takes a very long time to get to know the characteristics of individual Species of trees. This is a very big slice of the pie, in styling and artistic terms. Some people document their journey, others observe. Include me in the later. Everyday, come wind rain or snow, I am out there, observing every little change and detail. I am obsessed with trees, whether in pots or in the ground and spend the majority of my spare time, devoted to them. Men and there sheds!!???

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:10 am

I beg to differ as sculpture is concerned. I don't see sculpture as purely a dead thing. The crafting of convincing branches takes as much planning and foresite. Planned lumps and bumps, changes of angle need careful thought, just like the deadwood.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Rob Kempinski on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:24 am

I'm of the school that says anything goes as far as styling trees. Some will be better received or appreciated than others but let your imagination run wild. Mother nature does.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  dorothy7774 on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:33 am

jrodriguez wrote:..
Azalea in He Huashan mountain, Puli, Taiwan

..

When I see a marvel like that (thanks Jose Louis!) I feel I have to redefine beauty, set new standards and bang my head against the screen..



Get in line please.. Laughing

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:09 pm

Dorothy,

I know what you mean!!! With care, patience, time and skill, it is possible to emulate these. I am confident you have what it takes.

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Fuzzy on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:25 pm

Looking at the title of this thread suggests a western concept of either this or that but not both simultaneously. Bonsai tree or sculpture. This is where the eastern mind comes in with it’s appreciation of Zen where two concepts can and do exist as one. Sculptural bonsai created with artistic foresight hence bonsai is art with an acknowledgement that ALL things ultimately change and degrade over time. Even that cold hard and apparently solid piece of marble will disappear in time.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Martin S on Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:30 pm

dorothy7774 wrote:.....and bang my head against the screen..

Hey Dorothy!

Pls. don't bang such a nice head against what ever! affraid Dance
Martin

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  BonsaiAndino on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:26 pm

José Luis, respecto al post que publiqué con el tema "Bonsai: árboles o esculturas", se han generado muchos comentarios. Quiero dejar en claro que mi intensión fue la de trasmitir un punto de vista personal, y en ningún momento estoy criticando a la calidad de los árboles ni mucho menos la creatividad de sus creadores, a quienes admiro mucho, peor aún ofender, estoy consiente de que quienes sentimos afición por el bonsai somos una hermandad. En todo caso, reitero que como arte es totalmente válido...yo todavía no tengo ningún árbol, recién inicié en este fantástico mundo y eso es lo que me ha llevado en mi búsqueda por arboles como fuente de inspiración a ver muchos ejemplos. Obviamente jamás podremos recrear tal y cual el crecimiento de los árboles en su entorno, y hemos de tomar los elementos necesarios y los más representativos de la especie para tratar de reproducirlos en una maceta. El nivel del bonsai a nivel mundial es sumamente elevado, existen grandes maestros contemporáneos y las técnicas son elevadísimas, por ejemplo, admiro muchísimo a Walter Pall y sus obras. Pido mis sinceras disculpas a todos quienes participan del foro por tocar un tema tan delicado, y mi intención no ha sido ofender a nadie. Un abrazo.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Joe Hatfield on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:45 pm

BonsaiAndino wrote:José Luis, respecto al post que publiqué con el tema "Bonsai: árboles o esculturas", se han generado muchos comentarios. Quiero dejar en claro que mi intensión fue la de trasmitir un punto de vista personal, y en ningún momento estoy criticando a la calidad de los árboles ni mucho menos la creatividad de sus creadores, a quienes admiro mucho, peor aún ofender, estoy consiente de que quienes sentimos afición por el bonsai somos una hermandad. En todo caso, reitero que como arte es totalmente válido...yo todavía no tengo ningún árbol, recién inicié en este fantástico mundo y eso es lo que me ha llevado en mi búsqueda por arboles como fuente de inspiración a ver muchos ejemplos. Obviamente jamás podremos recrear tal y cual el crecimiento de los árboles en su entorno, y hemos de tomar los elementos necesarios y los más representativos de la especie para tratar de reproducirlos en una maceta. El nivel del bonsai a nivel mundial es sumamente elevado, existen grandes maestros contemporáneos y las técnicas son elevadísimas, por ejemplo, admiro muchísimo a Walter Pall y sus obras. Pido mis sinceras disculpas a todos quienes participan del foro por tocar un tema tan delicado, y mi intención no ha sido ofender a nadie. Un abrazo.


José Luis, about the post I published with the theme "Bonsai: trees and sculptures," have generated much comment. I want to make clear that my intention was to convey a personal view, and in no time I am criticizing the quality of the trees, much less the creativity of its creators, whom I admire very much, worse offense, I am aware of those who feel love for the bonsai are a brotherhood. In any case, I reiterate that it is perfectly valid as art ... I still I have no tree, just started in this fantastic world and that is what has led me in my quest for trees as a source of inspiration to see many examples. Obviously we can never recreate this and that the growth of trees in their environment, and we must take the necessary and most representative of the species to try to play them in a pot. The level of worldwide bonsai is extremely high, there are great contemporary masters and techniques are very high, for example, I admire very much Walter Pall and his works. I ask my sincere apologies to all forum participants touching a sensitive subject, and my intention was not to offend anyone. A hug.




I wanted to read it figured I would post the results.



BTW

I'm staying out of this one. Smile

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:04 pm

I'm sure I can speak for most people on this forum and no offense has been taken. This topic does rear up every now and then and what harm does it do to have a good old rant on the soapbox.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  JimLewis on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:06 pm

JimLewis wrote:

e]Maybe we ought to leave the trees in the ground Jim and forget about bonsai as an ART.



Well, as people who know me will tell you, that's pretty much how I feel -- unless the tree in question is in the way of the logging crews or bulldozers. But THAT's another discussion. And I'm not sure what digging up a tree has to do with "art."



Gracious Jim! Why indeed are you involved in bonsai anyway then?

Surely bonsai is more than going out on the mountains and leaving empty holes in the ground. If there's more than one way to skin a cat, there likely is more than one way to do bonsai.

I've been doing it now for 42 years. I've dug a few trees, but ONLY those in front of a bulldozer. And I have seen the once-natural landscape after a tree collector has hit the scene -- and in a public mountain park at that. I'd rather see the trees in situ than empty holes, broken rocks and pop bottles (smashed!).

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:09 pm

Andino,

Estoy seguro que nadie está ofendido. Realmente hacen falta tópicos de esta índole para fomentar la discusión. La divergencia en criterios es el punto de partida para la evolución en el arte y en la conversación. Sigue adelante!!!

Andino,

I am sure that no one is ofended by your post. Topics like this one are necessary to generate discussion. Different points of view are the turning point needed in order for art and diaologue to evolve. Keep it moving!!!

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:23 pm

I have only collected from a mountain once and all the trees taken were destined to be cut down for a Grouse shoot. I collect from unwanted hedges and building sites. Wasn't the argument about the art of collecting and not the situation?

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  JimLewis on Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:54 pm

I thought it was about trees looking like trees and not like "bonsai." The collecting thing was a side "issue." And I wasn't really arguing. If people want to collect from a natural setting, that's OK with me, just don't ask me to go too; if they want to collect protected areas, that's their problem and I won't feel sorry if they get caught -- and if I see them doing it . . .

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Andrija Zokic on Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:32 pm

Topic title is completely wrong.

Bonsai IS sculpture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_sculpture
"Bonsai is the art of aesthetic miniaturization of trees, or of developing woody or semi-woody plants shaped as trees, by growing them in containers. Cultivation includes techniques for shaping, watering, and repotting in various styles of containers."

Bonsai also IS a tree. Just translate therm bonsai from Japanese.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  amazonida on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:15 am

hi, i like when Jim says that people are like copy machines in repeat the traditional bonsai tech, like the first branch, second etc...but first we need to know the rules in orden to breake'em! Many of my trees i try to follow the japanese school but for some reason some do not fit to the rule, because the rule was built to fit Matsus and other many chinese and japanes... I was trying to built a myrciaria cauliflora according to the rule, ans one day i realize that we do not find the specie in nature that way... it was late... i really like this topic, makes me reflect about this..

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Walter Pall on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:49 am

Andrija Zokic wrote:Topic title is completely wrong.

Bonsai IS sculpture:

May I add that Andrija has studied Sculpture on a university level.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Justin Hervey on Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:07 am

The bottom line here is that, like anything that is aesthetically pleasing, the respective individual enjoyment thereof is purely subjective.
You are all right.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  sitarbonsai on Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:19 am

Justin Hervey wrote:The bottom line here is that, like anything that is aesthetically pleasing, the respective individual enjoyment thereof is purely subjective.
You are all right.

Put into perspective very well. Smile

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  littleart-fx on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:23 am

As added,...sculptural design is dealing with the material u use!
I see these as processes,...bending aluminium needs an other approach as iron.
Hi! All!

For me it stands,....as in writing mingle what you have in words and verbs and end up with....poetry
Chosen words in single,....added up to a sentence in time and shape!
Nature gives these to us, words...
If you are starting from scratch,...the poem is your'se

Bonsai has for me nothing to do with the image,....its the image within.
Or read, getting there at the right moment.
Balance in being....words
saying the right thing
at that moment.

Catch this moment and enjoy!
The process is fun!

grtz machiel

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  kimo on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:30 pm

Andrija Zokic wrote:Topic title is completely wrong.

Bonsai IS sculpture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_sculpture
"Bonsai is the art of aesthetic miniaturization of trees, or of developing woody or semi-woody plants shaped as trees, by growing them in containers. Cultivation includes techniques for shaping, watering, and repotting in various styles of containers."

Bonsai also IS a tree. Just translate therm bonsai from Japanese.

Just read this topic/thread from long time ago. very interesting and related to some recent topic too...including what is bonsai and succulent as bonsai, and infos about bonsai.
Maybe Jun is interested.?



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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Robert Steven on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:24 pm

...Bonsai..back to its basic phylosophy started over 1600 year ago :“源以自然,高以自然” with its basic aesthetic concept of "真善美“... (sorry, it needs 2 full pages to explain these 11 words in English)... Anyhow, the essence is that bonsai is not entirely copying nature, but simply a living medium to express the beauty of nature by artistic touch. Bonsai is not simply creating big tree in miniature size, but we are "resembling" the certain character...

I can live with any arguments, but what I feel sorry about is if someone doesn't know how to style a nice bonsai, then use the excuse for his/her "potted-plant" as "naturalistic" bonsai. However, I can sadly understand, and to them, my sympathy advice is " just enjoy your bonsai hobby like your sex life, although you may not good on it, but still enjoyable...don't you ?" (Just kidding... Very Happy )
..and at least I am good on the last one...(No kidding... bounce )


Last edited by Robert Steven on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:08 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : mistype)

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  kimo on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:44 pm

Robert Steven wrote:...

I can live with any arguments, but what I cannot accept is someone doesn't know how to style a nice bonsai, then use the excuse for his/her "natural" style. However, I can sadly understand, and to them, my sympathy advice is " just enjoy your bonsai hobby like your sex life, although you may not good on it, but still enjoyable...don't you ?" (Just kidding... Very Happy )

Very good words sir Robert! hahaha. and may I add. Some will even claim doing bonsai for a very long time makes them automatically good at bonsai. LOL. I am a newbie, but I select which people to listen to, not just the old ones or the people doing bonsai for long time, but more to younger people like you LOL who shows good artistic bonsai. may I add again, not everything copied in nature is always nice, like a tree shown above.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:24 pm

This is my personal, humble opinion.

I think bonsai people are a lot like car people (which I am also). You have the street rodders, rat rodders, gas rodders, purists, traditionalists, lowriders, truckers, mini truckers, "ricers", drifters, speed heads, motor heads, lead heads, V-dubbers and all kinds of other types of car folks. But it all starts with a deep love of automobiles and the need for self expression. I'd have to say that someone who fully restored an all original 1939 Lincoln Zephyr to its most beautiful, original glory can also at a bare minimum, appreciate what went into the late Boyd Coddington's 1939 Lead Zephyr. Even if they don't agree with how the Lead Zephyr turned out in the end (I'd be willing to call you insane if you don't like this car).

While some of us can't afford to have a car collection like Jay Leno's or a bonsai collection like the late Daizo Iwasaki, with our very own team of people to style and take care of them for us, a lot of us can still have trees in pots. And this also begins with a love of nature and our need for self expression.

Just be honest with yourselves. There is something to be said for someone born with a tremendous talent like Robert Steven or Walter Pall or Min Hsuan Lo or whoever else you admire, but talent is nothing without hard work and an idea of where you want to go. Study as much as you need to study to get to where you want to go. I say this with a double meaning. One meaning is study as much as you need to if your goal is to teach others. But the second meaning is study as much as you need to if your goal is to have your definition of beautiful trees. Study the work of the people that appeal the most to you.

I wonder why here in the west we need to categorize Bonsai as an art form or not, while in the East they just do Bonsai. I like Andrija's trees and according to Walter, he studied Sculpture in college. Among many others, I also like Walter Pall's, Erik Wigert's, Robert Steven's, Robert Kempinski's, Dorothy Schmitz's and Jim Lewis's trees and I have no idea what these people did in college or if they even went to college. I also really enjoy looking at Japanese bonsai.

Because my goal is to get to a teaching level of bonsai, I'm working on figuring out a way to go and apprentice in Japan for 5+ years. I realize I don't have to go that far to learn to teach, but I don't believe I have found enough resources around me to be able to study enough, to get to a teaching level. I fear this is a dream that may go unrealized but it won't be the loss of me, as I'll always have bonsai in my life.

My goal is to have a 1958 slammed to the ground VW Bus with the Safari windows that I can use to take my masterpiece bonsai (Plural form of the word) to shows with. I'm a beginner with big eyes and big dreams. Just like the rest of you here are either now or were at one point, like it was for Jim Lewis 42 years ago.....but probably without the VW Bus.

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Re: BONSAI. TREES OR SCULPTURE?

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