A stone i found near were i live

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A stone i found near were i live

Post  jamesransom on Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:45 pm

Would like to hear what fellow people think of the stone i found near me. I have shown all angles of the stone to give you a better idea. I am planning to remake a new base for for it but its a rainy day job.

Front
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Top
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Back
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Uncut Base
[img][/img]

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Yvoune on Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:49 pm

The second view is the most appealing to me, wow Shocked

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A stone i found near where i live

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:27 pm

This is a GREAT stone.
Could you please tell us its size?

Peter

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The size of the stone.

Post  jamesransom on Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:36 pm

Hi Peter and all interested, the stone is about 35-40cm long about 10cm wide and 7cm at the tallest part. I am not sure of the type of rock but the lines are not quartz more like lime stone? I know my plants but not my stone Smile

James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:44 am

Hi James... This looks similar to limestone found in Virginia (USA) mountain rivers-- Edinburg limestone (in our case). If like ours, its moist black surface tends to move toward dry & grey in sheen/color if exposed to weather. As collected in a river where the surface is repeatedly worn, it is often moist & black with the possible exception of unexposed surfaces. Often, all is moist & black after collection except for inclusions of calcite which are usually clean white, dirty white, shades of rust/orange or a combination.

Edinburg limestone is highly susceptible to etching by even mild acid. Only one state away (Maryland), a Potomac Viewing Stone Group friend collects and dips limestone in strong Muriatic acid to achieve a uniform jet-black & moist surface which leaves calcite deposits bright white. Yours could be comparable-- his collected stones have mottled surfaces before acid bathing. He has practiced with enough stones & acid strengths to somewhat control the sheen which can be distractingly glossy.

This stone would be fine for suiseki if the stone could maintain/increase its luster & depth of color by dry dusting/polishing. I've had a similar stone polish to a higher black sheen when lifted repeatedly in fitting a stand (but only where the fitting occurred). Mechanical buffing doesn't help-- at least, I couldn't achieve the polish which occurred in fitting though I repeatedly tried.

Oiling looks good temporarily but ultimately stains the stone. Repeated hand polishing is very light oiling. Adding wet detergent or liquid soap to the dry stone temporarily adds sheen but ages it similar to advanced weathering. Black polish (shoe wax) will return a light grey, dry limestone to moist & black, but you can't use black polish & retain beautifully contrasting calcite inclusions.

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cool rock

Post  Joe Hatfield on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:09 am

Cool rock you got there. How much work have you put into this?

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  guy ward on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:03 am

nice stone-- perhaps a lighter sandy coloured base when redone-

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The stone and work done...

Post  jamesransom on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:52 pm

Hi All
This is a real funny one, I live in Jersey Channel islands uk and found the stone just off the coast line near my boat. Jersey sits mainly on granite or lava rock. The stone is very hard with some chalky markings as you see, to find more of the stone is few and far between. Maybe it was imported 100 years or so ago from france as (we are only 12 miles away) but not sure.
The work i had done on the stone is just a clean to remove the grime then i gently heated the stone and rubbed it with a block of bees wax. I wiped off the excess wax and made a dai for it all this was done about 4 yrs ago. since then i dust it and dream its an unknown island ..............full of lovely women Laughing ..........just kidding bonsai would be better they dont talk back pirat

James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Norma on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:39 pm

Hi James,

It's always fun to see stones collected in local areas......I agree with Chris about your stone appearing to be limestone. It's a beauty Very Happy

It really reminds me of lingbi from China ; even the cut bottom shows an appearance that is similar to my lingbi. I think the base is fine but the stone seems to have broken in spots? When you carve a new daiza keep the color dark so as not to distract from the stone.

Great start with stone collecting, James.....hope you find more!!

Norma

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The stone, i had another look.

Post  jamesransom on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:48 pm

Thanks all
I had another look to me it looks like slate but you may know better and could be sandstone.

Hi Norma, The stone is how i found it and have not cut the base and is still intact or as i found it. I felt i was lucky and a bit like a spoilt child getting all you can ask for at christmas. It tends to make other finds more difficult for some reason.

Thanks James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:46 pm

Hi James... The beeswax treatment might not be so funny. Consider that beeswax is impervious to water, lightly-tinted and used by bees as a glue to hold hive structures together. It is not so different from other waxes and oils (including petroleum products, plant/animal extracts & oil from your skin) except that it is more sticky. Often beeswax products are mixed with other oils acting as wetting agents for spreading & absorbing it.

Fine wood furniture receives a hard finish (lacquer et al.) on top of which beeswax is applied so that dirty beeswax can occasionally be removed for reapplication of a fresh, clean coat.

The intent of wet or dry aging suiseki is to create a permanent skin which holds moisture close to the stone's surface. Beeswax repels water-- collecting debris in a water repelling seal instead of in a water retentive skin. Re-oiling or waxing a stone temporarily adds sheen or gloss, but the treatment(s) eventually dries, discolors & is near impossible to remove. Natural translucence of the stone suffers over time. Color changes, too.

Beeswax is far from a panacea to display the natural surface of a stone. For the present, this stone looks fine... and, perhaps, that is okay. I'd collect and pay attention to similar stones (though noting this one as rare on Jersey Island) where you can view and possibly experiment with their aging over time. The truest lessons will come from your experience.

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Milan Kulhavy on Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:44 pm

The stone is very nice (keiryu-seki) but to use oil or wax is not suitable for real suiseki.Good surface is achieved only yoseki process.

Have a nice day.

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will keep the wax for the wifes legs!

Post  jamesransom on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:16 pm

Thanks Chris
Yes i understand about that i did use a pure wax block and a small amount but enough. The normal color of the stone is the base color and without the flash on it looks more that color but will avoid wax in the future.

James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  furuya on Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:04 pm

Hi James,

Your stone is a nice limestone, but not from French coasts, I have gone in vacation during more than 10 years
in Normandie(Granville) and I visited many times your nice island, I know French coasts and have many friends from there.
So I think you must search around the place where you found this one, maybe you can find others.

Like Chris told you, don't use oil for stones, it is better to rub it with a cotton cloth. Don't use neither muriatic acid because
this kind of stones have much calcite, which will be damaged by acid and you will risk to have two or more pieces : calcite with acid
will transform in CAOH and give many bubbles, if you don't have experiences with muriatic acid, you will lost your stone.

The color of your stone is enough dark, you must only give it a bit more patina, only that.
If you can give us another picture clearer, we will be very happy.
Thanks for sharing with us,

marco

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:20 pm

Hi James... Thanks for taking my post in the spirit intended. Returning contributors to threads are very gracious, here. The forum has been & continues to be open to a wide variety of stone enthusiasm.

You & I consider the effects of practice while still doing the best we can to display our stones. Beeswax might be the very best option for this stone's appreciation-- it looks good, now, with no signs of staining or deterioration after two years. I’m sure you are anticipating the future as well as the present. Some stones will not improve by yoseki practice.

My black Edinburg limestone specimens fail from dry-aging (clean dry-cloth dusting/polishing) & wet-aging (gentle watering & weather exposure), so I experiment. IBC member “Furuya” (Marco Favero) once sat beside me as the president of Nippon Suiseki Association characterized one of my treasured Edinburg limestone a “pickle stone” at a symposium in 2002. He was humorously referring to a stone better-used to hold down the lid of a pickle jar than appreciated as suiseki, I think. Perhaps, Matsuura-san also thought it looked like a pickle.... :-)

Your stone displays a wonderful landscape-view form, James. It is not a pickle stone.

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Yoseki is not high on the list

Post  jamesransom on Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi Chris and Marco
Thank you for your feed back and all your helpful comments. I will look again in the area and see what i can find. if i find any thing of interest i will post it here so you can see.
I feel that (in my opinion) is a true stone is one you find complete and not a part cut off. It feels like wrecking a bigger part for a smaller part in some cases or like its a short cut in some way (just my opinion and not entending to offend anyone). Anyway i may well have made a rod for my back in this way but its more fun.
i had read that if you rub the stone with........................ wait for it.......................... no not that affraid ................ your hands, it helps build up the patina or luster in the stone.
I will take some more shots of it in normal day light tomorrow.

Thank you
James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  furuya on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:35 pm

James,

in this forum all the people help generously and sincerly with his hearth.
This said, I suggest you rub with a cotton cloth or with nature (water and sun) but not with your hands
because your hands have grease and grease is like oil.

Your stone has already a good color, you need only a little more of patina,nothing but that.

Have a fun day,

marco

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F Y I, some new pics

Post  jamesransom on Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:45 pm

Thanks all,
Sorry for the humor but hay ho, I have some clearer shots taken at bonsai club to day. See what you all think, i will make a new dai sometime.

James

[img][/img]

[img][/img][img]

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Thanks James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  furuya on Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:57 pm

James,

I know much this kind of stones, with your new pictures I see what we have many times i.e. white marks
on surface difficult to take away because they go inside stone's porosity. This is the effect of many sun,
the clays infiltrate surface and melt with limestone: only here you can use acid muriatic with caution and
protection: one month ago I sent a stone like this one (a gift for a friend) discovered in French mountains,
she told me one week after that she cannot take away these same marks, I suggested the acid, she left
the stone one night on acid with 30% of it, the day after she had three stones, calcite evaporated,
but the marks easily gone away with a metallic brush.
Before to do that, try to use a metallic brush always maintaining wet the stone.

The front is without doubt first pic, your daiza is a bit too high and heavy but for your first stone you can be
proud.
I'm sure you can find other specimens if you search with wisdom.
Best wishes,

marco

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:29 am

Hi James... Marco's advice sounds reasonable & experienced to me. I like the stone best from the first view you gave us in the original post-- looking slightly downward as well as in front of it. Though a landscape stone's horizon line might look attractive, it is a rarely seen perspective for viewing a suiseki. A frontal, low angle suggests the top is being hidden... and it is!

This stones variety of contours allows numerous expansive views in a limited space. Very nice.

The daiza appears more than adequate as it is. Before crafting another daiza, I'd consider re-cutting the edge of this one near, if not at, the outside of its close-fitting interior wall. Tucking the daiza closer to the stone will bring out the stone's dominance. The extra width is arguably more distracting than the daiza height. Daiza height might be lightened visually with an undercut profile, which could also can strengthen appearance of the stone having a natural contour underneath. Of course, present feet & unseen cutting below the daiza might severely limit options. This daiza is more than adequate, already.

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Re advise on the stone.

Post  jamesransom on Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:44 am

Thank you Chris and Marco and all that has had input.
I will have a play with the dai and let you know. I have never used acid on a stone and most likely try it on a normal stone first. The way i cleaned it up the first time was by using a bronze brush to remove the muck and this worked well. The back of the stone i had left with more white on it as i kind of liked the look but could be cleaned later.
When i did a course on Bonsai with Yugi Youshimura he had talked about his "viewing stones" as he called them (i know it is the same) and spoke about building the patina up with handeling them thats why i had spoken about that method. But i take your valued comments on board and will do my best for the stone for it to be presented in the best way.

Thank you James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:22 pm

Hi James... There are stones that are never watered and always shown on daiza. The best example from Japan is Kamuikotan ishi with a very finely textured matrix & a wet, jet-black (megoro) finish. The common practice is to dust/polish the stone with a clean, soft cloth.

Ben Nanjo (San Francisco Aiseki Kai) & Felix Rivera (California Suiseki Society) speak of hard, very dense & finely grained stones (several varieties from N. California rivers) receiving hand-rubbing. Felix has even spoken of meiseki created in months if not weeks by handrubbing the right stone. I imagine they honor their teachers in the practice, and not denying their roots is commendable. Keiseki Hirotsu who with one, & later two, other Japanese-American enthusiasts formed the first Western suiseki club in Palo Alto, California (~1966) seems among contenders for establishing practice at that time. I can see many of his stones on Felix Rivera's website, read of him through San Francisco Aiseki Kai friends including Mas Nakajima and marvel. Others on IBC & throughout California know more of Mr. Hirotsu's practice-- he died in 1987 but lives through continuing appreciation.

In the latest California Aiseki Kai newsletter (available online), I thought Jim Greaves (the "Guy Jim" column) chose wonderfully in noting some stone display practices as "Japanese-American Tradition." He was primarily referring to mounting bonsai & suiseki in the same display where one was the principal display object, but the traditions of early clubs & sensei might extend much further.

Folks on the USA East Coast & in Europe are more familar, perhaps, with the Nippon Suiseki Association publications & practices that differ from Japan's Zen Nipon Aiseki Kyokai (All Japan Stone Lover(s) Association). Aiseki Kyokai practices published with variations by the two Mr. Murata(s), Mr. Takehashi & Mr. Nagase occurred at the same time suiseki practice was growing in California. When in 1988, both Nippon Suiseki Association & Aiseki Kyokai published books on important Japanese stones, the formats & naming varied modestly between the two. Some California suiseki publishers referring to Japanese stones (e.g., Ben Nanjo's Unkon Fu) typically choose the Aiseki Kai format where it differs. The Japanese Ministry of Cultural Affairs has charged Nippon Suiseki Association with promulgating the tradition of suiseki since its establishment ~ 1961.

Ben Nanjo does a good job of explaining hand-rubbing in very limited context. Handrubbing & light oiling were once widely recommended (mid to late 1990s) for a wide variety of stones in North America with many being irrevocably stained or, at best, retarded from establishing a skin. A yoseki-practice aging would attract & retain humidity from the air and/or watering rather than requiring oiling or handrubbing. Oil-dependent translucence can never reflect changes in humidity & is likely to reduce natural stone translucence, in my opinion & limited experience.

To my mind, the best skin for dense, deeply-colored, hard stones takes much longer for aging than for less dense stones. They open pores and wear more slowly.

I would not choose a suiban for your stone or water it beyond cleaning for aging. Dusting/polishing with a clean, dry cloth over time might encourage a skin to form that closely holds humidity. The beeswax will affect the stone slightly (or perhaps more) underneath the surface slowly built by dusting. The worse scenario is adding oil or wax until a primarily black stone turns brown & only looks translucent when re-oiled.

A French enthusiast (not Marco, though Marco knows him) once posted a glossy, apparently-oiled limestone on this forum. He crowed about his dry rubbing technique to perfect the surface in only a year's time. He seemed so convinced of the practice that I think he believed the result came from his latest efforts. Don't believe all you read-- especially question anything I suggest (my wrong turns are numerous). I've had limestone literally sit unattended in a garage with no treatment and turn significantly darker-- especially the Ligurian limestone for which Marco is much more familiar than I. I haven’t dusted any stone daily, ever… but I believe the practice makes sense in a variety of ways similar to the experience of watering bonsai by hand, daily. I water many stones requiring it on the same schedule as bonsai & keep a few in my showering room which show substantive change with humidity—that is not any learned practice but suits my appreciation. When humidity is high in Virginia (especially in the month of August), my stones are often clear scales through changing depth of color.

I've shown the picture of a repeatedly oiled stone before. It was once featured in a Japanese suiseki exhibit as a Kamogawa stone with the famed jet-black finish. I only have a photo a couple of days after a recent oiling. When wet it looked mostly deep brown. Before oiling it was horrendously dry & light in color.

You can unpack this, James, to determine a practice which meets your needs.

Oiled & soon drying, stained Kamogawa-ishi:

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Lots to know

Post  jamesransom on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:57 pm

Thanks Chris,
There is lots to know and would take many years (part of the fun) to learn and abuild up a good luster to the stone. First i will tackle the dia and see how it looks.
That is a stunning stone you have shown looks big, do you show it free standing or on a stand?

Thanks James

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Re: A stone i found near were i live

Post  Chris Cochrane on Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:52 am

Hi James... It is a huge stone-- perhaps slightly over a meter in length. The stone's vendor owned a catalog displaying the stone in a daiza (now lost)-- I'd guess it was a pre-War exhibit, auction catalog or perhaps a memorial catalog associated with sales of a specific collector's collection. The National Bonsai & Penjing Museum has some of these catalogs. The Director of the U.S. National Arboretum Dr. Tom Ehias arguably has an even deeper private collection of publications-- especially in regard to suiseki.

Kunio Kobayashi had this stone when I saw it. He has an extraordinary private library & generously shared it while I was studying in Japan. Mr. Kobayashi additionally has many catalodgs & books pass through his hands. Some perhaps travel with extraordinary pots he collects-- very old publications clarifying the cultural history of much older pots-- many from Chinese kilns. I don't read Japanese, but occasionally Mr. Kobayashi would have Peter Warren (his senior apprentice) describe the history of a pot he was describing and pull out a musty catalog... :-)

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