Re: PLEASE HELP SAVE THIS BIG FAT TRUNK JAPANESE MAPLE

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:35 pm

immAGinoso wrote:Can bonsai pests go all the way up from the ground to the 17th floor?

someone on the floors above you may have a horribly infested house plant...
or birds may be carriers
or god can put them there
or they could take the elevator

geek

immAGinoso wrote:Also is there a general practice of keeping pests away in your bonsai space, garden or balcony?
Something organic would be ideal.. garlic spray? neem oil? Just imagining these for now...

praying mantisis !!!

in all seriousness though, they do make systemic insecticides if needed... key phrase = if needed.

immAGinoso Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:13 pm

Praying mantis? That would be so cool!
If only possible to get some and put them in my balcony.
I would even put one or two in my bonsai stand indoors (tropicals) for the winter.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:34 pm

egg cases on ebay

immAGinoso Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:53 am

beer city snake wrote:egg cases on ebay

cooooooooooooool Smile

They are not cheap though... other ideas? There is a courtyard with lots of plants in the ground level of my building. Can I just catch some there? Some sort of a trap? Or do local plant stores, city green thumb stores carry eggs?

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:35 pm

i have no idea what stores near you might carry...
nor what you might be able to catch...

but on ebay i think i paid less than 15 bucks (including shipping) for 5 egg cases...
and each egg case can yield between 50 and 150 critters

Dave Murphy Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:09 am

Predatory insects like a Mantis will only stick around as long as there are adequate numbers of the insects they eat, and they'll move on once they're aren't any more. I'd stick with the insecticides unless money is no issue.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:28 pm

dave - they make little harnesses for them so they dont wander off...

i wasnt serious about mantis on a balcony
was just curious how far along the notion would go... Wink

immAGinoso Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:50 am

beer city snake wrote:dave - they make little harnesses for them so they dont wander off...

Still worth mentioning it... I still learned something new! So thank you.

i wasnt serious about mantis on a balcony
was just curious how far along the notion would go...

immAGinoso Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:06 am

So far...
1) Carved out dead wood as much as I coul then got half of the muck out and topped with new deciduous mix,
2) Saw new leaf growth and kept thinking about advices here about summer repotting
3) Took tree out of its pot, lightly soaked and moved it around in a tub of water to remove muck
4) Rewired tree back to its pot, and then topped it with mixed deciduous soil mix with pebble like material from a departed pine. Covered almost the whole nebari
5) Put in a kitty litter with an inch high water as hydration tray (dry conditions up on balcony), no direct contact with water
6) Put it in shade, misting 2 squirts each day Razz

(I feel sorry for the tree)
7) Saw new healthy cluster of leaf growth, so I was hesitating to use the pesticide malathaion.

UNTIL TODAY.....

PLEASE HELP SAVE THIS BIG FAT TRUNK JAPANESE MAPLE - Page 2 Img_1711

Eggs???

I gave it a good injection (with woodworking glue syringes) of malathaion. Kept putting in the solution into the holes until it flowed out even in the lowest west hole that is at least 4.5 inches deep (see previous pics). At least 6 tbsp. of the pesticide solution dripped into the soil , nebari part.
9) Put it back in shade with the hydration tray.

Now what?

Dave Murphy Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:17 am

Remove the hydration tray then just feed and water until it regains it's strength, which may take a year or two.

BrendanR Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:01 am

The deadwood is not needed for health. SO while the boreres are causing a problem, I am not sure that it is affecting the health of your tree? Does anyone have a view on this? If they are causing the health to suffer then you need to get them out of the heartwood ASAP?

The health is what I'd worry about. So if it is not the heartwood / deadwood, then what is the cause?

Trees need leaves to make food. The food drives the production of leaves, trunk thickening etc. If the leaves are improving then leave it be. If the leaves are not improving then there's a very serious problem as it shows the tree has no stored energy to produce more leaves, and that the current crop of leaves are not actually feeding the tree. From what you say about new growth this is not likely the case?

So here's my analysis:

IF the heartwood problem has been addressed or you can let it slide, then do so. If not, solve it ASAP. The decision has to be based on whether ignoring it will kill the tree. If it won't kill the tree, let it be.

Apart from the heartwood bugs, let the tree recover. Leave it for at least 2 full further growing seasons to get healthy. I have had acers that were poorly. I left them for a year and they seemed to recover. I was tempted to regard that recovery as health, but I refrained and waited another growing season. In the second season I saw real, impressive growth. I learned a lesson. Proper health is where you are forced to cut back and prune the tree just to keep the leaves in check. Mere survival is where there's an acceptable flush of leaves but you can't really tell where to cut any away, if at all. Do not cut off any growth at all for now. Every leaf, and every inch of branch or trunk contains some cells that help photosynthesise. Cut it away and you cut away part of the tree's factory. You can't afford to do that just now.

immAGinoso Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:09 am

Dave Murphy wrote:Remove the hydration tray then just feed and water until it regains it's strength, which may take a year or two.

Why remove the hydration tray? It is on a 17th floor downtown balcony and everyone has commented that general conditions are drier that high.

If you could kindly explain, so I could learn and apply the logic in the future. Thanks Smile

immAGinoso Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:12 am

BrendanR wrote:The deadwood is not needed for health. SO while the boreres are causing a problem, I am not sure that it is affecting the health of your tree? Does anyone have a view on this? If they are causing the health to suffer then you need to get them out of the heartwood ASAP?

The health is what I'd worry about. So if it is not the heartwood / deadwood, then what is the cause?

Trees need leaves to make food. The food drives the production of leaves, trunk thickening etc. If the leaves are improving then leave it be. If the leaves are not improving then there's a very serious problem as it shows the tree has no stored energy to produce more leaves, and that the current crop of leaves are not actually feeding the tree. From what you say about new growth this is not likely the case?

So here's my analysis:

IF the heartwood problem has been addressed or you can let it slide, then do so. If not, solve it ASAP. The decision has to be based on whether ignoring it will kill the tree. If it won't kill the tree, let it be.

Apart from the heartwood bugs, let the tree recover. Leave it for at least 2 full further growing seasons to get healthy. I have had acers that were poorly. I left them for a year and they seemed to recover. I was tempted to regard that recovery as health, but I refrained and waited another growing season. In the second season I saw real, impressive growth. I learned a lesson. Proper health is where you are forced to cut back and prune the tree just to keep the leaves in check. Mere survival is where there's an acceptable flush of leaves but you can't really tell where to cut any away, if at all. Do not cut off any growth at all for now. Every leaf, and every inch of branch or trunk contains some cells that help photosynthesise. Cut it away and you cut away part of the tree's factory. You can't afford to do that just now.

Thank you very much for your analysis. This is adult talk Smile

I mean for more experienced hobbyists.
I am still trying to digest the information.
Could the others please comment?
Thank you.

leatherback Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:29 am

You have inserted a good amount of pesticide.Now wait and see whether you get new wood pushed from the inside. If so, repeat the pesticide. If not. You are good to go. Then jsut let the plant grow. Do not work on the wood: You do not know how far the deadwood stretches, nor how much of the wood is still alive. Part of the wood brings the sap up from the roots. Interrupt this at the wrong spot and you kill a branch..

Reread this thread and find the common advice:

- Deal with the substrate (done)
- Deal with the insects (Done)
- Leave alone (NOT done so far).

Dave Murphy Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:59 am

immAGinoso wrote:
Dave Murphy wrote:Remove the hydration tray then just feed and water until it regains it's strength, which may take a year or two.

Why remove the hydration tray? It is on a 17th floor downtown balcony and everyone has commented that general conditions are drier that high.

If you could kindly explain, so I could learn and apply the logic in the future. Thanks

Humidity trays only increase the ambient humidity for an inch or 2 above the water so it's doing nothing up where the foliage is. You seem to want to keep it which is fine but understand there is no benefit using one. It's a myth, pure and simple.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Dave Murphy wrote:Humidity trays only increase the ambient humidity for an inch or 2 above the water so it's doing nothing up where the foliage is. You seem to want to keep it which is fine but understand there is no benefit using one. It's a myth, pure and simple.

just a quick clarification which may go without saying:
humidity trays do help, but only for a tree in an enclosed area, but certainly not on a balcony...
(and the more enclosed, the more benefit, but not without its own set of concerns which is a whole 'nother subject)

Dave Murphy Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:05 am

beer city snake wrote:
Dave Murphy wrote:Humidity trays only increase the ambient humidity for an inch or 2 above the water so it's doing nothing up where the foliage is. You seem to want to keep it which is fine but understand there is no benefit using one. It's a myth, pure and simple.

just a quick clarification which may go without saying:
humidity trays do help, but only for a tree in an enclosed area, but certainly not on a balcony...
(and the more enclosed, the more benefit, but not without its own set of concerns which is a whole 'nother subject)

If your enclosed area is a greenhouse, then yes. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:33 pm

right... of course i was not referring to a living room.

and a "greenhouse" can be as small as needed (i.e. an inverted cut-off 2 liter bottle over a single tree)

immAGinoso Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:15 am

Quick update: Overall tree looking more vibrant and new leaf cluster growth reaching full leaf size.

But I saw one cluster kinda burnt. It probably is the part that wasn't shaded by the panel I put infront it so that it doesn't receive direct sunlight.

Should I put in a spot now where it can get direct sun from sunrise til say about 9am? Should I start watering like normal again slowly by slowly?

What does "LEAVING THE TREE ALONE" exactly mean? Until when? Til it is time to overwinter? No water, no misting? To me that sounds like, finding a dried up fossil in the shaded corner by October.

Please excuse for my lack of horticultural knowledge and bonsai experience. But I am here to learn and I am thankful for all the help so far. Smile

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PLEASE HELP SAVE THIS BIG FAT TRUNK JAPANESE MAPLE - Page 2 Img_1819

immAGinoso Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:56 am

I would also take this opportunity to learn more about ROOT ROT AND FUNGICIDE.

If I understand correctly, once the roots get soaked for an extended period of time, it will rot and develop fungus.

How do I check for fungus? Do I dig up a part of the root?

Or is the technique applying fungicide a "general just to be sure extra" if you are suspecting root rot and will do no harm at all.

Could someone please explain Smile

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:41 pm

immAGinoso wrote: What does "LEAVING THE TREE ALONE" exactly mean? Until when? Til it is time to overwinter? No water, no misting? To me that sounds like, finding a dried up fossil in the shaded corner by October.

Please excuse for my lack of horticultural knowledge and bonsai experience. But I am here to learn and I am thankful for all the help so far.

i hope you really do not think that "leaving the tree alone" means anything other than JUST LET IT GROW.

ever have a girlfriend or a wife that says "just leave me alone for a bit" when you get on their last nerve ???
i am sure you have...

i think folks are gently suggesting that you have perhaps gotten on this trees last nerve and apart from sustenance, it should be just left to grow and heal.

(some very basic plant sense is kind of a prerequisite to this endeavor, just as very basic pet care is necessary to caring for a cat)

leatherback Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:18 pm

beer city snake wrote:
i hope you really do not think that "leaving the tree alone" means anything other than JUST LET IT GROW.

That was my suggestion yeah. Leave it be. Just let it grow. Water when needed. Fertilize when growing. And next spring, think about whether the tree is coming out of dormancy with a sprint or in a dull stroll to decide whether one summer is enough recovery time.

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