Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  LanceMac10 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:27 pm

You would think, then, he wouldn't be so dismissive of what, to me, is a pretty good example of something grown from seed. In a tropical environment with a species that might not lend itself well to the original posters climate.


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  redmoon on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:34 pm

coh wrote:Well, "James Smith" is probably a relatively common name, so if this is the James Smith of bonsai fame, why not just say so?

I'm guessing it's not that James Smith...

You're basing that guess on what exactly? That someone of his stature wouldn't be caught dead on this forum?

Actually you may have something there. Okay. Goodbye.


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  coh on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:35 pm

Leo Schordje wrote:

If this were my tree, I would wire all the branches out, and adjust them down, the lowest to an angle below horizontal, middle to an angle near horizontal, and the upper to lay out a little and fill in gaps left by moving the others downward. Right now, to my eye, with all the branches reaching for the sky, the tree creates an image of a young, or middle age tree in an open field. Lowering the branches, would create a more aged appearance. Ends of branches with foliage, would turn up.

But this is my personal interpretation of the image.

Of course shorter needles would help too, but you know that and are working on it. I am not "horrified" at your cutting of needles, It is one way to "get the photo". It is just not the preferred method.

Nice tree, I'd be happy to have one like it on my bench. Good work.

Hmm...you know, I don't know if the suggestion to wire branches down would do much for this tree. It really doesn't have the basic shape/structure of an old pine tree, at least not the pines I'm familiar with. It looks more like the shape you'd see for a healthy, mature (but not aged/past its prime) deciduous tree alone in a field. That's partly the shape/structure of the branches (their horizontal or upward growth) and canopy, and the size of the needles relative to the overall tree.

It's a pleasant image as it stands, though. Not every tree needs to have twists and turns and tortured deadwood. All depends on what kind of effect the owner is trying to achieve.

Chris

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  fiona on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:50 pm

redmoon wrote: Preeminent grandmaster of American tropical bonsai who's forgotten more about bonsai than most of you will ever know.

What's going on  in this place these days??
Greatness does not exempt anyone from civilised manners. Sadly, that is what is wrong on here these days.

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  redmoon on Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:21 pm

fiona wrote:
redmoon wrote:  Preeminent grandmaster of American tropical bonsai who's forgotten more about bonsai than most of you will ever know.

What's going on  in this place these days??
  Greatness does not exempt anyone from civilised manners.  Sadly, that is what is wrong on here these days.

I would be interested to know how, in your view, Mr. Smith's critique was uncivilized or ill mannered. After all the OP did include:
"Anyhow here it is.
Feel free to comment yay or nay.
Laters.
Khaimraj "

Mr. Smith simply voted nay and took the time to explain his view point. Great or a rank beginner does he not have the right to an opinion when opinion was actually solicited? With what I've read on this forum recently this negative opinion is about as civilized as it gets.

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:08 am

redmoon - are you thee mikey iler ??? Razz Wink

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  geo on Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:40 am

We know who Mr.Smith is and what he has done. carp,current curator of the collection,has shown several trees from it on BNut more than once,redmoon.I doubt very much whether the poster commenting on the Pine is indeed him.

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  redmoon on Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:22 am

beer city snake wrote:redmoon - are you thee mikey iler ??? :P ;)

Huh? Twin Peaks greeting committee?  

I'm holding out hope that it is not the James Smith for the forum's sake. You and several others might be having a hand in running off a lot of knowledge. (Plus who wants to be forever known as the guy who called Gentleman Jim a dick?)

We see what happens when someone bucks the popular here. I shouldn't have bothered. Apologies to the OP. If it's any consequence I quite like this tree. I'd be proud to say it was grown from seed. Well done!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:47 pm

redmoon wrote: (Plus who wants to be forever known as the guy who called Gentleman Jim a dick?)

i do not believe i have ever called a gentleman a dick.
gentleman by definition are most assuredly not dicks.

redmoon wrote: We see what happens when someone bucks the popular here. I shouldn't have bothered.

mikey - as a long time viewer, you should know that there are many dissenting opinions presented here.
but the manner in which they are presented matters just as much as the opinion itself.


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kingsnake on Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:01 pm

beer city snake wrote:mikey - as a long time viewer, you should know that there are many dissenting opinions presented here.
but the manner in which they are presented matters just as much as the opinion itself.

As a new viewer (since that is apparently relevant to you), I personally find nothing wrong with the way james_smith presented his opinions, either in this thread or this one for that matter:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t17255-novice-stratification-of-10-different-bonsai-species

I do, however, personally feel as though your opinions may be presented in a rather tyrannical form, beer city snake:

those sound like pretty good reasons to you, eh ? scratch

Razz Laughing Razz

I can see no rule in the sticky post stating that dissenting opinions must be presented in a way that does not offend beer city snake.  Nor do I see that a dissenting opinion will only be permitted after a viewer has first shown their own work.  Perhaps the rules should be updated to reflect their true intent!

Then again, what if the whole thing is being misinterpreted by both you and I, given the lack of context inherently available in this medium...  Beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder, is it not Mr. Snake?  Perhaps we should both consider that our interpretation may not be the only interpretation of presentation manner.  Maybe a few emotes will help?  scratch

Razz Laughing Razz

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:18 pm

May I?
I would like to comment regarding the presumption that "james_smith" is possibly Mr. James J. Smith of the Durastone nursery.
Some years ago I had contacted Mr. James J. Smith regarding Ficus salicifolia and I can report he had responded as a real gentleman and he tried to help me eagerly.
However, I doubt that Mr. James J. Smith aged 87 years in 2012 would be interested in joining IBC in 2016 and declare his location : "nowhere"

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  LanceMac10 on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:20 pm

LanceMac10 wrote:Could you share with us some of your work, James? Smile

Works every time....... sunny drunken lol!

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kingsnake on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:53 pm

LanceMac10 wrote:
LanceMac10 wrote:Could you share with us some of your work, James? Smile

Works every time....... sunny drunken lol!

Never accomplishes anything other than creating conflict, preventing anyone from offering suggestions on how you can improve, alienating others, and making yourself look like a jackass in general....... sunny drunken lol!

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:53 pm

kingsnake wrote:As a new viewer (since that is apparently relevant to you),

i'm glad you claim to be from vegas now, because i would go 10 to 1 that you are not a new viewer, but instead a long time viewer and poster wearing a new hat, costume beard, fake location and transparent handle Razz

just say the word and i will place the bet... IP addresses will then decide the bet and we can settle up via paypal.

c'mon... whaddya say ?

lol!


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  fiona on Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:13 pm

Sorry guys, all bets are off.

Now please could we all stop ******* about. It's all getting very dreary.

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  LanceMac10 on Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:15 pm

J.I.G .....I like the sound of that....

Didn't see any styling tips, per se.....just a rather dismissive attitude. Created from seed, the tree offers up several options for styling.
At a size that I find desirable. Asking to see some one's work allows us to perhaps understand what direction they are suggesting.
The OP has a history of projects grown from seed, and they are numerous and documented.

And just to be a little cheeky....you now what they say about opinions......




heheheheeee.....some body always has another one........ Twisted Evil lol!



P.S. I really do enjoy seeing what other people are doing, I don't care if it IS a stick in a pot...... Bagpiper hehehehee

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:52 pm

LanceMac10 wrote:I don't care if it IS a stick in a pot...... Bagpiper hehehehee

hows this for a stick in a pot:

eucalyptus delgupta



a most ridiculous piece of material to attempt, but what the hell
after seeing one in person i had to try...

slow to thicken, but it has proven itself very capable of back budding on old wood, so we will see...
in about 20 years

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kingsnake on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:05 am

LanceMac10 wrote:Didn't see any styling tips, per se.....just a rather dismissive attitude.

That's a fair assessment.  Let's analyze this tree a little bit.

Color:



The colors are green, brown/gray, off-white for the pot.  No contrast here.

Space:



There's a rather awkward empty region in the middle of the crown.  It really divides the tree up, creating contrast between the density of the branch being pushed down, the white space, and the rest of the crown.  The space between the bottom left and bottom right branches is different, also creating contrast in a good way.

Line:



The lines are all quite straight with very little movement.  This is especially true in the thicker branches.  It's impossible to say for the ramification, but there appears to be a bit more movement.  The bottom right branch is considerably thicker than the bottom left, and the top seems to fan off in a whorl.  There seem to be only two primary branches.

Texture:

The three textures are the flakes of the bark, the smooth needles, and the rough concrete.

Shape:



The overall shape is reminiscent of a mushroom, or triangle if you prefer.

Repetition:

The only real repetition is in the ramification.  The first and second branches could have established a pattern of decreasing space going up the tree but the pattern ends and it becomes a whorl beyond that point.

Balance:

The tree is extremely balanced.  There's no lean.  No branch heavier than the others.  No movement overall.  Just very symmetrical.  There is some unintended tension due to the negative space from the bottom branch being pushed down, but even that's minimal.

Contrast:

Not much to speak of.  The colors are all complimentary and rather muted.  The branches are roughly the same size.  By pushing down the bottom left branch, there's an awkward contrast between that branch and the rest of crown.  The crown may be a little wide for the trunk, also creating an awkward contrast.  There's no dead wood to contrast the living.  The tree's even set in the middle of the pot.

Summary:

Overall I'd say that this tree's biggest problems are a lack of both contrast and repetition.  It's so balanced that you can take the whole thing in with just a glance.  The lack of movement in the lines fails to move your eyes along the tree.  The crown's too wide to depict a forest conifer, yet there's not enough movement or deadwood to appear to be growing in harsh conditions, and the crown's too full for that anyway.  It's more reminiscent of a broad-leaved tree in full-leaf growing in an open field than a pine. Sleep

I would grow the branches; thicken them up, create some movement in them, and chase them back closer to the trunk.  Let the crown grow taller, more like a conifer.  Continue the repetition of the branches going up the trunk.  Fatten up the trunk so the crown isn't so disproportionately wide (especially beyond the first branch).  Then let one of the bottom branches grow further out so the tree isn't so balanced!


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  redmoon on Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:51 am

That’s a fine post right there. Thanks for that king.





Given this tree’s current state I have an alternate take. Going with the undeniable reminiscence “of a broad-leaved tree in full-leaf growing in an open field...” why fight it at this point? The problem with rebuilding the scaffold to create a more pine-like tree is; the time involved, the probability of it looking like hell for a year or five, plus, if I’m reading the op rightly, the fact this is a stock plant for grafts. Grown outside Pt range with no cold to induce stasis this seedling was the sole survivor from a large block of siblings. He needs his shoots!

I think either way would be worthwhile but this alternate may be a bit less of an imposition. It may still look like hell for a bit but I would bend the first branch back up, thin out the crown severely while choosing the next leader to, as you suggest, go up another layer, then wire the shoots out to encourage back-budding. After that concentrate on reducing the needle length. Not so much a broad-leaf as a tree-form needle juniper. Rock slab.

Hope to hear from the original poster at some point.

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:25 pm

moon/snake (see what i did there ? Wink )

now that is civil, constructive and intelligent criticism, as opposed to the simple dismissiveness of "mr. smith".
something that folks (like me) can learn from... initially, i saw very little of what you saw, but all of what you point out.
whether anyone agrees is another matter (and i do not mean that snidely).

the op (khai) claims to have departed the forum, but as you know he has popped back in occasionally since then.




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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:53 pm

Guys - remember - Laughter Time.
Please I was not offended in anyway.
As you may have noted, I am trying to find the correct time for removal of candles to get smaller needles
in a tropical climate.

So as to not put more strain on an already "old" tree, I have done no real wiring. Just grow and clip.
Better to have a simple tree, than a dead one.

I am a Fine Artist, I am accustomed to opinions on my work, paintings are much more precious to
me, and if I can handle ---- oh that looks yucky, ---------- well?,

Yes, Kevin, I saw the original comment, a while ago, but I am busy painting and, if it were someone from Bnut,
I would say just leave it alone, that group is very opinionated. Which can be good or bad.
Fading away Kevin.
Laters.
Khaimraj

*Ho ho, yes Jim I have a drawing for this tree, x time down the road.....................
Stay Well Jim.
,

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:47 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Guys - remember - Laughter Time.

easy to forget what should always be remembered !

quite the lively topic you have going here, khai... Wink

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  Eric F on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:46 pm

Yay. Im kinda new to bonsai but thats a great tree imo. And Im a tropical guy, normaly pines dont do it for me. I like how short it looks!

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:10 pm

Thanks Eric and Kevin and Lance,and anyone else I forgot [ hi Alexandria sunny ]

Just to correct a misconception, J.B.pine is a zone 7 to 10 tree, grows down at the seaside and is salt tolerant.

Additionally, this tree grows well down here, as well as the other 40 something+ other J.B.pines I have from mostly seed
and some cuttings.

They like the 5 mm builder's gravel mix plus 1/3 to 1/5 compost by volume and porous pots, be it clay or cement.
Additionally due to chap on AusBonsai, I have no dependence on outside seed anymore, just cuttings.
Even if only 5 take a year, well, I will overload in say 10 years.

Due to our climate, sun most likely, J.B.pines, will backbud at a steady rate.

I am also producing pine compost to see if that makes a big difference.

When the exact time to candle is found, I will be moving onto wiring.
Be patient with me please.
Down here we are finding so many new types, and it takes 3 to 5 years to do the tests.

Just found a brilliant purple flowering, could be a vine, but these could be shrubs.
Small leaves, some branching, and very woody trunks.
Off to experiment again and again.
Laters.
Khaimraj

* Plus a weird weed that looks like a miniature conifer.


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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

Post  my nellie on Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:00 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:... ...* Plus a weird weed that looks like a miniature conifer.
Looks like "Weeds" are after you, my friend! Very Happy



P.S.: After some time I have come to understand a few things you have told me in the past...

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Re: Ok laughter time, J.B.pine

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