Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:08 pm

Norma,

I would have to discredit myself, simply because I grew up in the jungles of Trinidad, and bonded to trees.
I can find great beauty in a seedling and that should help explain why Bonsai is a great hobby to me.
The larch is beautiful, period.
It just needs a pot just to live in.

So as frame is to oil painting, the pot in this case also supports life, as well as frames the tree.

I don't see trees as needing ornaments or carved stands or scrolls or other, if collected, were these ornaments surrounding it when it caught the eye ?i

The tree is the "painting" and is individual, from time of germination.
Men who make triangles, make individuals into the generic.
When, lacking in ability, they get bored, they then experiment to no point.

We have the same problem in Fine Art, folk who get bored and then spend endless hours on technique, materials or abstract ideas, but never produce a viewable painting or sculpture.
And oh yes, lots of words......................................

Beast had a kind heart, and was able to love deeply, all from inside.
The larch is a tree and because it is a tree, possessing great beauty --------------- how you choose to grow and design will enhance or detract.
The tree is not to blame.
Laters.
Khaimraj

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  JimLewis on Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:52 pm

And then there is . . .

http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/extraordinary-bonsai-tree-sculptures

http://www.gardendesign.com/ideas/art-botany-makoto-azumas-bonsai

https://www.google.com/search?q=Azuma+Makoto+SHIKI+1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMI-reL5sjOyAIViHE-Ch2dLQWN&biw=1280&bih=582&dpr=1.25

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  BrendanR on Wed Oct 21, 2015 11:09 am

The discussion in the link below is on a friendly bonsai forum.  The poster, Rainer, exhibits one of the most intriguing trees I have ever seen in bonsai.  I wonder if it is still alive, as I think it is a significant marker in the way bonsai is evolving - like it or not.

Personally I think it is sublime as both horticulture and as art.

http://www.weetrees.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2962

I think Walter Pall knows this tree, and it could easily have been the subject of his thread.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:25 pm

linky no worky... need to be a member.

if the photo is elsewhere in the public domain, could you post it here ?

or perhaps direct us in a google search with a bit more info ?
(i tried rainer bonsai and came up with rainer goebel... but no images that jumped out at me as being the tree you refer to)

thanks

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:59 pm

BrendanR wrote:The discussion in the link below is on a friendly bonsai forum.  The poster, Rainer, exhibits one of the most intriguing trees I have ever seen in bonsai.  I wonder if it is still alive, as I think it is a significant marker in the way bonsai is evolving - like it or not.

Personally I think it is sublime as both horticulture and as art.

http://www.weetrees.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2962

I think Walter Pall knows this tree, and it could easily have been the subject of his thread.

There have been a few trees that have been posted here as works in progress. One in particular, either a Scots or a Mugo, was on the cusp of being a really great bonsai as it was a Yamadori to begin with. As the work continued it was finished up in a planting situation that I thought made the tree less than it could have been.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Leo Schordje on Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:29 pm

I agree with Walter, this display by David Crust is "Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world". It is art because David says it is art. And I like the cognitive dissonance it sends my head into. It jangles the nerves, like a mild electric shock. If I had to water this arrangement every day, my opinion would change, but coming across this in an exhibit has a great startling effect. I like it. It is irreverent, and gives one pause to think. In fact this is one of only a few of the trees from the Cup to get its own thread on this forum, so to David Crust I say "well done", you generated discussion and consideration about the nature of bonsai art. The few other trees with threads on this forum are trees owned by members of this forum, and are mostly development sequences, which are equally great to see.

Nobody has commented about the quality of the larch itself. It has a great aged look to the trunk, with its shari and rough bark (for a larch). There is some good taper coming off the base. Then the upper section is fairly straight with little further taper. The lone branch starts out great, but if it were mine I would think about changing the arrangement of the foliage pads. Though in the setting of the display the foliage placement is appropriately random looking. There seems to be good ramification, secondary and tertiary branching. That larch clearly has been well cared for, and for several decades at least. Masterful growing. This is not an amateur's tree, it is a well done tree. The tree's style is a bit ungainly, and angular, which actually matches somewhat the design style of the Kirby. A more "classical" tree could not be paired with the "distressed junk" antique Kirby. It was actually a fairly good match between tree and prop.

Anyone else actually look at the tree?

I did not have the pleasure of seeing the Artisan's Cup in person, so my comments relate to how the lighting there affected attempts by visitors to photograph the trees. The lighting was awful. You can not see any detail except the spot light highlighted areas. For example in Walter's photo, you can't make out any detail of the accent plant (3rd element) in Crust's display. None of the photos of the Cup winners posted by visitors to the show allowed you to see the whole tree, or display. Always some part was so deep in the shadows that one could not get a sense of the whole from the photos. I hope if/when the show photo album comes out, that better lighting was used, or it will be a book that won't sell. I won't pay for a book that has half of every tree in deep shadow. While the setting and lighting were dramatic, as a bonsai hobbyist, it was a poor set up for amateur photographers.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:40 pm

That seems to be the new cause-celeb; "Dramitic lighting", if that's what you choose to call it.  Here again it is something I like because of the expressiveness of it but I hate as an example of how a bonsai should be photographed.  We have to decide what it is we are looking at.  Is it a bonsai show, or an exhibition of "Modern Art" using bonsai, instead of pasta or tolit paper?  Is it a bonsai show or an contest/exhibition of photographs of bonsai, and various ways to photograph them?  Maybe that's what I don't like in a lot of the so called new directions; the tendency to make the actual bonsai an element in a display featuring something else as the prominent subject.  The toilet, the Kirby the bed pan, the hunman skull with the top chopped off of it.  We have to decide if throwing a bonsai into the mix how makes this a bonsai?


Last edited by Vance Wood on Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:18 pm

Leo Schordje wrote: Anyone else actually look at the tree?

funny you should ask...

our guy steve c. was there and was looking at that display with boon... they eventually drifted off while continuing to discuss the display and boon turned to steve and asked, "so what kind of tree was it ?" and steve was a bit embarrassed to admit he did not notice or recall... Embarassed Wink

leo covered the tree, but in direct regard to the composition, i find the 2 vertical lines to be competing for my eyes, and it being a bonsai show, i want the right hand line to win, but unfortunately, and because of what it is, the left had one wins... i feel if you want it to remain "bonsai", then the tree should dominate, no matter what you stick it on or in...

for example, nick lenz's penelope... the tree is still the star and penelope is a strong co-star.



i think if the kirby display was stuck in an art show with no other bonsai or reference to bonsai, it would not raise much attention beyond shrugs and head scratchin', while penelope would raise more than a few favorable eyebrows... and i admit, that may be comparing apples to oranges, but while both are waaaaaaay out there in the bonsai world, i find one to be beautiful and i feel the other was startling simply for the sake of being startling...

and i wish i could see the accent better... from what i can tell, it looks fairly conventional and if so, then incongruous with the rest...

as for the angel scratch
i dont find a connection or discernible juxtoposition to justify its presence...
it reminds me of the portlandia skit: "put a bird on it"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_ZnC203Wo




BUT - having said all that, i still think it was cool that it made the "big show"...

and speaking of nick lenz... did he have an entry ???
if not, then that is a travesty.


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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  LanceMac10 on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:41 pm

Love that show!! I'm still trying to figure out why!!!

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  BrendanR on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:26 pm

Here's the pretty amazing tree with the tale told in German - and even though I can't rally read German the pictures tell the story:


http://reiners-bonsai-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/forsythia-x-intermedia-titanuki.html

http://reiners-bonsai-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2008_03_01_archive.html

In a nutshell (summarising what I have read on the net) this was a yamadori that suffered heart wood rot.  The tree was worth saving so Reiner had a friend make a titanium prosthetic trunk that fitted inside the completely hollowed out tree. The tree is beautiful in its own right - the tree has been carefully worked over many years and achieves a stunning literati style that would look good on any bench.

The science is also a profound part of this tree's story. It needed a tanuki heart as the tree could not support its own weight, but was worth keeping alive. The titanium heartwood it thus a horticultural enhancement that could be classed as utilitarian and functional - a mere accessory that the science of horticulture recognised was necessary.

The titanium insert is a metalwork masterpiece, at once both organic and inorganic,

The artistry that created the insert combines with the organic tree to thrust into existence almost a new species.


Science, art and the courage to bring them together make this a very important tree. Whether you like the result or not.

Boy, do I like it.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  BrendanR on Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:47 pm

Here is Rainer in his own words.  As the Weetrees link does not work I copied the content of his narrative without the pictures:


"Dear Friends,
now I want to try to tell the story of my forsythia. It will be very difficult for me, hopefully I do not disgrace myself too much.
In 1987, I found this little tree, it was in the trash. At that time I had to take everything from which perhaps would be to make a bonsai.


The first styling in 1987. However, very far from how I imagined the tree.


I wanted a single branch growing vertically, this was an attempt to achieve that.


1991 the vertically branch grow this spring.

1992
Winner of competition of the magazine "Bonsai practice workshop". The Jury said: "a brave design where everything is perfect". The tree was for a contest, of course, too young, but the jury like strict adherence to the rule of thirds.


1995 began the dead wood to rot. A piece of wood from a yew was installed as root prosthesis.


The dead wood is repaired. That same year I presented the forsythia in the "NRW-bonsai days" in Essen, the tree won a jury prize.


2005 the trunk was then completely rotten. Since I did not at first as I could still save the tree.


Up to half of the trunk, I removed the rotten wood to the cambium.




The tree was at the bottom only a living part of 5 mm thickness.


The tree can´t stand alone.


I had still no one idea what to do with the tree. So I removed the dead wood completely.


To prevent further rottenness, I raked in the tree with wood hardener.


Before re-potting the forsythia bloomed again very beautiful. She urged me to make my thoughts about their future.


Here we see the result of my considerations. My friend, Michael Tigges is a blacksmith. I told him my idea of my Forsthia to give a new trunk of metal. He wanted to produce this trunk. He chose titanium. The metal but should get an obtrusive color. Michael stained the titanium with a welding torch in blue. The picture shows the first-pass sample.


Spring 2008. After repotting into a new pot of the potter Horst Heinzlreiter from Austria. The flower is somewhat restrained.


Deep frost and deep snow in winter. One might think the Titanium trunk lives. He constantly shows other colors. This dark purple, I really thought that is very cold for the forsythia"

While I was researching this I found that Reiner passed away in 2012. He left a profound legacy and I hope this special tree is still alive somewhere.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Roger Snipes on Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:41 am

Since I was at the show I had the pleasure of viewing the larch in vacuum cleaner composition in person. I though it was great; it brought a smile to my face when I first saw it. The tree is actually a well done tree. I think if one is going to create a composition such as this the tree needs to be good.

Regarding the lighting, it looked good in person when viewing the exhibits, it was not designed for photography. All the trees and displays were individually set up and photographed in good light prior to being set up in the display. There won't be a paper exhibition album, rather they are putting together an online album with high quality photos of all the trees. Each judge individually recorded their comments on each tree, and the plan as I understand it is that in the online album from each tree photo one will be able to click on each judge to hear their comments on that particular tree. Should be quite interesting.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  AlainK on Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:28 am

I am a piss artist too.

Took a few days off, read good books and crossed Johnny Walken's and Colonel Sanders' path on the shores of the Atlantic ocean.

"I suddenly dreamt that I picked up the revolver and aimed it straight at my heart my heart, and not my head; and I had determined beforehand to fire at my head, at my right temple. After aiming at my chest I waited a second or two, and suddenly my candle , my table, and the wall in front of me began moving and heaving. I made haste to pull the trigger."



We all-a longa for wabi-sabi, donta we?

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:54 am

Brendan,

I suspect if the Titanium had been heated lightly to bring out it's gold oxide form, it would have sat better in the heartwood's space, so perhaps a little more research needed to be done.
Good idea though, thanks for pointing the direction.
Laters.
Khaimraj

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Dave Leppo on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:00 pm

I like the blue metal with the yellow flowers

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  my nellie on Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:56 pm

I have been reading this thread (as well as the other one on "the American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum") with great interest. I can admit I am a little confused and I do my best to understand... Nevertheless, I do know what I like and what I detest...
Excuse me but I would like to ask something absolutely irrelevant to the subject...  Embarassed  
Aren't we supposed to use a capital letter in order to write the first letter of proper names?
Kevin, I feel really embarrassed quoting your words but I see this happening every now and then.
beer city snake wrote:our guy S-steve C-c. was there and was looking at that display with B-boon... ...
L-leo covered the tree... ...
For example, N-nick L-lenz's P-penelope... ...
and speaking of N-nick L-lenz... ...
Don't we show disrespect using lowercase letters instead of capitals?
Or perhaps I am an old fashioned growler who spends time to hit some "useless" buttons on the keyboard...

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:15 pm

my nellie wrote:Excuse me but I would like to ask something absolutely irrelevant to the subject...  Embarassed  
Aren't we supposed to use a capital letter in order to write the first letter of proper names?
Kevin, I feel really embarrassed quoting your words but I see this happening every now and then.
Don't we show disrespect using lowercase letters instead of capitals?
Or perhaps I am an old fashioned growler who spends time to hit some "useless" buttons on the keyboard...

alexandra... no need to feel embarrassed... absolutely no disrespect is intended, and i show the same level of respect for myself as to others, as i do not capitalize "i" nor kevin when typing in general... over the years it has become my "thing" and so from me you will see it more than "every now and then"...

it does not bother me that some may find me ignorant, and it may surprise some to know that i have been a published writer in the past and have a good grasp of correct grammer, punctuation, etc... i just tend to eschew it unless it is necessary (such as formal letter or article writing, work projects, etc)...

and if anyone feels disrespected by such a simple thing from such a simpleton,
then perhaps there is maybe a chance that it is possible they think too highly of themselves Wink

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:48 pm

That's kind of stubborn for no reason is it not?

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  my nellie on Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:50 pm

Then I am really too old fashioned Very Happy And more than this I reckon I am too "orientalis" than "occidentalis"  Very Happy
Thanks for your reply, Kevin!



PS : I apologize for this brief disorientation of the conversation Embarassed

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:33 pm

Vance Wood wrote:That's kind of stubborn for no reason is it not?

nope... just a lazy typer
nothing more and nothing less

no worries alexandra !

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  JimLewis on Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:54 pm

Vance Wood wrote:That's kind of stubborn for no reason is it not?

A tad lazy, too, but a lot of folks who post via their telephones or tablets seem to have forgotten that capital letters (and, often, punctuation) exist -- and that their presence makes it easier for readers to make sense out of their sometimes convoluted prose. 

Over the years, I've tried to point out that writing is a form of communication, and communication works best if you make an attempt to communicate properly -- ESPECIALLY when there are many people here for whom English is a second or third language.  Not everyone is as dumb as many Americans about bothering to learn to communicate in several languages.

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:26 pm

JimLewis wrote:A tad lazy, too, but a lot of folks who post via their telephones or tablets seem to have forgotten that capital letters (and, often, punctuation) exist --

lazy is what i said... and i don't have the tablet/phone excuse...
i have a full keyboard right in front of me...

anyone think we should continue to digress from what was an interesting discussion ?
(not your fault alexandra - you asked a question and i answered it)

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:45 pm

btw - the titanium reinforced forsythia is absolutely fascinating... (robosai ?)
and not only for the mechanics involved, but also for reiner's devotion to a tree he obviously treasured

industry meets horticulture with stunning and beautiful results !
(especially the temperature induced color changes)

i too hope that it is in equally caring hands after his passing...

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  Norma on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:26 pm

hi kevin, being a "bit old school", there is a twist of the gut when i see all lower case letters in a dialog. this is the elementary teacher in me...but ee cummins didn't care and so it seems, the poetry of haiku ! the habit of using capitals is so imbedded in precomputer habits that it's difficult not using capitals for some........
it's strange that i never noticed your lack of capitals....bye the way it took me forever to write this....habits run deep!!

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

Post  fiona on Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:45 pm

I'm with you, Norma. Very Happy

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Re: Duchamp's Fountain of the bonsai world.

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