Artesan's Cup

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  M. Frary on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:04 pm

Sorry Kevin,but I still don't know who he is. Didn't Google him.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:13 pm

he's just a 70's comedian who's signature character was a lush... really quite funny.

now we can move on Wink

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  M. Frary on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:17 pm

I read elsewhere they may be having the next Artisans Cup in Australia.
The winner of this one was a tree collected,then has been in Ryan Neil care and styled by him for the past 3 years. There was a tie. He got to cast the deciding vote. It was between 2 trees he styled to begin with. Must have been a tough decision.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  dick benbow on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:25 pm

The gentleman from Australia is Frank Kelly and yes they are scheduled for the next cup in 2017. New york city in 2020....Frank came up to the museum for a tour and afterwards I got to show him around the place behind the scenes. Quite the enthusiasm.

let's talk about the judging,

five judges....highest and lowest points thown out. the next 3 in the middle were added together and averaged to give an impartial score. That's how all the trees were
rated.

and yes there was a tie, anticipated in the rules and regs and handled by Ryan Neil and Michael Hagedorn. Their decision final.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:56 pm

i'm surprised ryan did not recuse himself from the contest and just display his trees...

but the ones that were styled by him were entered by someone else ?
(and by extension credited with the work ???)

man... i hope thats not the case...

someone please tell me thats not the case...

because if thats the case, then......................................... Rolling Eyes

(i know they do it in japan but this was supposed to be different... i.e. "artisans" cup)


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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  M. Frary on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:20 pm

Yeah, he actually styled the tree.
So yeah,that's the case. But that is what they do in Japan.
I believe Randy Knight collected the tree and owns it. Ryan styled it. But the 3 top trees were styled by Ryan.
Too bad someone else's tree didn't make it the final 2. Then he would have had to make a hard decision.
None of this matters at all to me. I'm pretty sure I'll never have a tree in an Artisans cup. Even if I have one that's worthy. The entry fees,shipping of tree,motel and dining expenses and let's not forget my Ford Explorer gets 15 mph.
As it is,controversy or no,it was about the trees or should be. Not who owns them nor who styled it.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  dick benbow on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:44 pm

I was afraid the topic of Ryan's involvement would come up in a negative way.

I used to struggle with that situation in my 40 year history with koi shows. We'd invite a breeder over from Japan to judge and he could tell his own koi. Often times they'd win. Best fish or just trying to market his brand name? Many times folks would fly a fish in for a show and never had one thing to do with it's raising. Unfair? maybe, do you want to see the best fish available or cripple the show by saying you must have had the fish under your care for X amount of years? or with certain trees, certain teachers could or should not have helped style t?

Please keep in mind with Ryan, that this show was his dream. He worked feverously on it for years. Exclude his own work from entering? Do you want to see the best tree
or just another average piece of workmanship. The man put his property up on the line to insure financial insurance to back the effort. What more could he give. He has a wife and family, who do you know who was that commirred to our hobby that would come up with an idea to promote it, and put all on the line to get it done. don't overlook the fact he and michael chose from 2 trees while the other 5 judges brought those two to the top.

I'm grateful to Ryan for all he has done for our hobby and can only wish him and his work the best.


having nothing to do with the topic of ryan but still interesting, quess which of the five judge had the lowest overal scores throughtout on all the trees? Or another way to phrase it, who was the hardest scorer? Smile California's "Boon".

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:51 pm

dick benbow wrote:I was afraid the topic of Ryan's involvement would come up in a negative way.

i dont see that has happened yet and i dont believe it was anyones intention to make that happen...
my inquiry was honest and hopeful... honestly hopeful that the cup was different...
(although it does confirm a few things that i will keep to myself for now.)

and the inquiries had more to do with the show than with ryan himself.

dick benbow wrote: Please keep in mind with Ryan, that this show was his dream. He worked feverously on it for years. The man put his property up on the line to insure financial insurance to back the effort. What more could he give. He has a wife and family, who do you know who was that commirred to our hobby that would come up with an idea to promote it, and put all on the line to get it done.

and certainly hats off to him for putting together a spectacular show (that i am sure paid dividends on his investment).

and i mean that... the show looked like it was visually stunning !

dick benbow wrote: Many times folks would fly a fish in for a show and never had one thing to do with it's raising. Unfair? maybe, do you want to see the best fish available or cripple the show by saying you must have had the fish under your care for X amount of years?

"unfair ?"
YES !!!
ABSOLUTELY !!!
no maybes about it.

dick benbow wrote:Do you want to see the best tree or just another average piece of workmanship.

sorry dick, but that statement is right up there with "crippling the show" as an assumption that any other work would be sub-par... and maybe that would be the case, BUT at least credit would go where credit is due !!!

and again, and this is my biggest gripe: the artists who STYLED THEIR OWN TREE would all be in the same boat...

if i could see any one thing change about north american bonsai it would be to change the contest format in order to bring some honesty, integrity and fairness to the whole show/contest concept... such as separate categories for trees that were actually styled by the owner, apart from those who's only involvement was making their fat wallet marginally thinner and then adding water.

i dont care if they do it in japan...
i find it dishonorable if someone enters a tree that was entirely styled by someone else and then hangs that ribbon from their mantle-piece.

disclaimer:
as always, this is only my ignorant, novice, simpleton opinion.  Rolling Eyes

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  dick benbow on Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:11 pm

My comments about the Koi show the difference in our own culture here in the states as opposed to say one in Japan. And it would seem that it also translate ino our bonsai perspective. I think there is eoom for that kind of concern. maybe as things grow in the hobby here there will be opportunities for those who have made the tree what it is with their very own hands.

I think chatlines are a good opportunity to share one's feelings about a topic. Quess life woul be kinda boring if we all agreed on everything.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  reddog on Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:22 pm

beer city snake wrote:sorry dick, but that statement is right up there with "crippling the show" as an assumption that any other work would be sub-par... and maybe that would be the case, BUT at least credit would go where credit is due !!!

and again, and this is my biggest gripe: the artists who STYLED THEIR OWN TREE would all be in the same boat...

if i could see any one thing change about north american bonsai it would be to change the contest format in order to bring some honesty, integrity and fairness to the whole show/contest concept... such as separate categories for trees that were actually styled by the owner, apart from those who's only involvement was making their fat wallet marginally thinner and then adding water.

i dont care if they do it in japan...
i find it dishonorable if someone enters a tree that was entirely styled by someone else and then hangs that ribbon from their mantle-piece.

 My issue with the above diatribe is now it is about the artist and his ego.  I've always felt it should be about the tree and to maximize the potential within it.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  geo on Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:12 pm

And my issue is you calling the "above diatribe" a diatribe. He was expressing his opinion about the philosophy of shows. A cogent topic, and one that will no doubt get plenty of walls of text in future, specifically because of the latest "really big shew" (Ed Sullivan, in case you are not old enough).

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:45 pm

r-dog... my view has absolutely zip-zero-zilch to do with the ego of the artist...  Rolling Eyes

and it seems to me that the one needing the ego stroke is probably the one who wants to win a ribbon so badly, but they know the only way to get those bragging rights is by paying someone else to do their work for them...

sorry, but i just do not understand that.

george - if it does generate walls of text, then maybe something will change Wink

and dick - thank you for your reasonable and even handed reply... i truly did not want to start a shit storm.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  Van on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:34 am

LanceMac10 wrote:drunken ..rising tide lifts all boats......BBBRRRUUUUUPPPP....... drunken
Sometimes, in case of tsunami, rising tide sinks most of the boats except for a few ships.  What left behind is a carnage.  Where are we go from here that don't have the deep pockets or the mean to collect wildly old materials?  For everyone that grow from seeds and air-layering, wish your great great great great grand children good luck.


Van wrote:  The art of bonsai is making something very young very ordinary plants looked like old trees?  Or the art of bonsai is to capture centuries or even millennium old trees put in the pot and called it a bonsai?  If so, how to judge them accordingly for the awards?
van

This is the question I've asked quite a few months back and so far not even an answer relate to the question.  I guess everybody already knows how bonsai are judged, I am just a fool.  Kevin called me out for expounding on the top of a soap-box for this.


Van wrote:Kevin,
It makes me mad when I saw some of the videos on Youtube, some of the most ancient trees collected by someone claims as the greatest yamadori collector in the world then turn them into monetary value, just like we used to treat the giant redwoods and sequoias that they had to turn to lumber in order to fulfill their purpose in life.
Van

Hey Kevin,
He is not only the best yamadori collector in the world, but also now officially becomes one of the best artists in the world.


This is no mean to take away the tremendous efforts that Ryan and Chelsy Neils staging one of the best show in the world.  I raise the underlying issues in hope the next Artisan cup would even pull more bonsai enthusiast average dudes that love surfing and chilling like Kevin, or a redneck fool like me hope that our great great great grand children have a chance to hoist the cup one day.

van

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:26 pm

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/short-film-showcase/the-art-of-shaping-a-bonsai-tree

Kevin,

the question I will always ask, since as a Fine Artist, who was taught, to make an oil painting from - Idea to Image =

Is, who do you take more seriously, the guy who has a good eye for collecting, or the guy who grows from seed/cutting or airlayer ?

Then I remember Bonsai carry no permanent signatures like oil paintings do, and as owners die, the tree moves on.

It really is not an individual's effort, and so who cares.
We will always know who wrote which classic, which great poem or music, sculpture, but not so Bonsai.

So all these competitions are.......................

Hobby, Business or Vocation.
Have fun all.
Khaimraj


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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  M. Frary on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:37 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/short-film-showcase/the-art-of-shaping-a-bonsai-tree

Kevin,

the question I will always ask, since as a Fine Artist, who was taught, to make an oil painting from - Idea to Image =

Is, who do you take more seriously, the guy who has a good eye for collecting, or the guy who grows from seed/cutting or airlayer ?

Then I remember Bonsai carry no permanent signatures like oil paintings do, and as owners die, the tree moves on.

It really is not an individual's effort, and so who cares.
We will always know who wrote which classic, which great poem or music, sculpture, but not so Bonsai.

So all these competitions are.......................

Hobby, Business or Vocation.
Have fun all.
Khaimraj

Exactly!

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:45 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:the question I will always ask,... Is, who do you take more seriously, the guy who has a good eye for collecting, or the guy who grows from seed/cutting or airlayer ?

both - as long as they do the work themselves.

van - thanks for your points which will help illustrate the following:

khai - my grandchildren being proud to own a tree that i have styled is far different than someone buying a tree, having someone else style and care for it and then immediately putting it in the contest in the hopes of bringing home the prize.

if i style a tree, then die and my grandchild takes over the care of that tree for some years and maybe makes some styling changes, then he or she can truly begin to call it their own and enter it in whatever contest they want...

the only thing i am against in this whole "diatribe" is someone immediately seeking a prize in a contest for work they did not do.

period.

and until that changes...

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: all these competitions are.......................

exactly !!!  Wink


(and yes - i am deliberately using terms like "contest" and "prize" for a reason)

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:46 pm

cross post with mr frary !

exactly exactly ! Razz

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  M. Frary on Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:04 pm

Khaimraj is an artist with words also.

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  Van on Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:20 pm

The intrinsic, the intangible, the process of creating still have value in what we call bonsai art?  And please again I am just a redneck fool, in no way I want to demise the great work that Ryan and Chelsy had done.


Last edited by Van on Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:15 pm

Van wrote:And please again I am just a redneck fool, in no way I want to demise the great work that Ryan and Chelsy had done.

and neither do i...
i do not blame ryan for styling someone elses tree when they are paying him to do so...
that is his business... both literally and figuratively. Wink

and van - just because you are from florida does not mean you are a red-neck...
unless you are a true red-white & blue fan of jeff foxworthy...

if so, then..., maybe Razz

getting back to the cup, i still am wondering about the skateboards ! scratch

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  Van on Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:29 pm

beer city snake wrote:

and van - just because you are from florida does not mean you are a red-neck...
unless you are a true red-white & blue fan of jeff foxworthy...

if so, then..., maybe Razz

getting back to the cup, i still am wondering about the skateboards ! scratch

Kevin,
I am not only Jeff Foxworthy fan but also Larry The Cable Guy fan... That is double red-neck bro. By the way, I am an Asian, so I got a really brown neck, red-neck is just a wish from me.

It would be cool if you ever stage any show in Wisconsin with your surf-boards. They are cool looking.

van

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  dick benbow on Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 pm

skateboaeds LOL, Initially I had my eyebrows raised, but being a seious volunteer there and with growing respect and regard for the new curator's effort to attract younger aged interest....I'm actually looking forward to see this event come to fruition. Or as Todd Beamer is oft quoted " Let's roll"...Smile

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:35 pm

personally i would prefer to keep the sidestance sports separate from the tree sports...

and imagine that !
an asian redneck !!!

right on !

reminds me of
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__W0Qa8v0k
(warning: reverse racial humor)

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Re: Artesan's Cup

Post  Van on Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:37 pm

beer city snake wrote:personally i would prefer to keep the sidestance sports separate from the tree sports...

and imagine that !
an asian redneck !!!

right on !

Kevin,
The scary thing is the trees ended up winning are 500 to 600 years old, so somebody has to top that with 700 to 800 years old tree?  That the sport I would definitely do not want to participate.

Richard Pryor used to call guys like me are the new n..gars.  So redneck for me is a major upgrade.  Enough of me being the dirt bag, my two cents worth has reached its limit.  I have to get off this thread.

van

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I'ammm Back

Post  mrmikecn on Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:14 pm

For what's it's worth western north American mountain trees, Yamadori and the like, tend to win over the hearts and minds of people when they see them. Twenty or so years ago any Yamadori with lots of jin coming out of the Rocky mountains could win a best of show, just because. Smithsonian magazine back in the day, did an article on Rocky Mountain Bonsai. Each one being mostly dead wood with little form, but they were considered great. This trend could be coming.Question

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Re: Artesan's Cup

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