Hawthorn Root Problem

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Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:44 pm

Hello,

Looking for some expert tips on dealing with a problem I more or less created myself whilst trying to be creative.(should have known better)

The yamadori hawthorn below (1M high) had a high root at the back . I cut it off this spring when I lifted the tree for inspection as the main basal flare and nebari are a good 10cm below this point.

The 2 inch root cutting is growing well in its 1st season btw.

I have foolishly cut back the root stump flush to the main trunk (yellow lines) and it looks awful.

In effect, there is a flat spot and reverse taper at the back as per the diagram on the right so when the tree is eventually potted up this flaw will stand out more by being exposed even higher up at the back..



Options I have considered.

1/ Pegging in a false dead root and carving to disguise.

2/ Disguise with a rock or similar.

3/ Carve it right out so it’s a definite hollow and live with it.

4/ Plant the root cutting tight behind the tree, mash it up a bit and sort of let it grow up
as a secondary tree.

5/ Move the tree on to someone better able to deal with it.

6/ Donate to the rugby club wood pile for winter

Am prompted to post this as I see a very similar (but not so obvious) situation with the Tony/Matt/Harleyrider buxus posted recently as per below.




Pointers gratefully received.

TimR

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Kev Bailey on Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:12 pm

Great explanation of your dilemma and the diagram really helps. A shot of the root cutting might help, as I'm considering the possibilty of planting that up as close as possible to the trunk, maybe even shaving one side of it away so that it sits closely, like a phoenix graft and eventually fuses with the base. Does it have similar bark characteristics? Would it help to disguise the inverse taper?

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  leszekrybak on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Did you consider thread grafting a seedling? Harry Harrington explains the procedure very well at his website.

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:06 pm

Thanks for the feedback chaps.

As the pics might show, there is a large root right under the area which probably precludes planting the root cutting close in or thread grafting.

Kind of favouring adding a false deadwood feature to disguise it.

I fashioned a QDJ (quickly detachable jin) for a juniper which does the job OK.

Thks

TimR






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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Tony on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:12 pm

Hi Tim.

The high root on the Buxus was debated with Matt and Harleyrider, making it a feature of the shari was an option? actually it could never be incorporated as a feature as it was out of scale... plus... once removed all evidence of its existence is removed and what is left is the image you create.

Your 'problem' stump (or ex-stump) is at the 'back' of the the tree, so whats the problem... it does not feature in your design... OK so from a particular angle there is reverse taper... again, this is not a problem if it is not glaringly obvious in the design and your chosen 'front'. Bonsai is an illusion what you do with the rest of the tree will draw the eye away from this slight 'flaw' if indeed it is a flaw... do not get hung up on this... you have a far bigger problem in creating a natural/mature/ramified canopy... NOW you have something to concentrate on.

If this was my tree I would 'hollow' the whole stump out.. as per the Buxus.

Hope this has brought some comfort sunny

Tony

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Harleyrider on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:33 pm

So now we know Tickle's First Law Of Bonsai: When in doubt, hollow it out! Very Happy

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  F. Waheedy on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:30 pm

Harleyrider wrote:So now we know Tickle's First Law Of Bonsai: When in doubt, hollow it out! Very Happy

Laughing Laughing Laughing Well said HR.

Look forward to meeting you at burrs.

Faisal

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:34 pm

F. Waheedy wrote:
Harleyrider wrote:So now we know Tickle's First Law Of Bonsai: When in doubt, hollow it out! Very Happy

Laughing Laughing Laughing Well said HR.


Laughing

Thanks again for the input.

I actually responded last night but don't see it???? Dial-up let me down I guess.

I am probably obsessing about it but this is my only large tree and quite good material imo if not spectacular in any way. I'm more used to <40cm stuff.

I collected it from the edge of my Rugby Club car park just ahead of a drunken tidy up team wielding chainsaws over Xmas 2006. You can see the beginnings of a saw cut (red arrow) so I got there just in time!



It was originally a 15 ft twin trunker and there is another large scar 3/4 of the way around the back where the 2nd trunk came off. (yellow arrow) There is potential to rip the back of the tree out and join the two features as per the virt for which I “borrowed” some of Will Baddeley’s wonderful dead wood. Thks Will.



So if you’re ever down Titchfield way Tony – bring a chain saw and the Makita and pm me an hourly rate.

Laughing

Thks

TimR

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:27 pm

I like this Hawthorn. Another option for you if the inverse taper really bugs you, is to air layer just above.

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:06 am

Hi Will,

Annecdotally hawthorn don't airlayer particularly well. (ref Harry Harrington for one)

As there's already such good flare and nebari under there already, I'd prefer to preserve that and tend towards a carving or splicing something in solution.

But as stated I will not get too hung up on it and concentrate on building the tree as the front view is fine.

Thks

TimR

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:39 pm

Hi again.

Work so far achieved with high speed drill and various spade bits then hand chisels

Need to decide how to connect or if to connect both hollows externally to keep it natural looking

Won't be visible from the front but will give some interest at the back I hope.

Thks

TimR


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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:56 pm

Hi There,

Following on from the above , I potted this up the other day

Needs a lot of work yet but so far so good imo.

thks

TimR


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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:19 pm

Dear Wabashene

Have you thought about using the backside as a new front. The tree has a very long part, (a bit boring). You cut this part down to the half, and create a new taper.

Kind regards Yvonne...I have 2 trees like this, also from 2006 Smile

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:27 pm

Hi Yvonne,

Thks for your comment.

There is a rather featureless top/mid section and this isn't a stunner by any means. It's very much a project tree - but I feel that this is the best angle probably.

My main objective was keeping it alive for four years and with annual root trimming managing to get it into this pot.

If you compare the middle pic in the 1st post to the middle pic of the latest post you'll see there are plenty of branch sites that I hope to develop to fill in the outline.

Some of these still sprout buds even 4 years later.

I've also moved branches around from the back by notching and wiring to help the outline. These are marked with yellow dots.

Also needs more carving up top to improve the taper.

But I don't discount anything.

I'm not averse to wacking a couple of feet off a tree by any means

Very Happy

thks


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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Hans van Meer. on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:33 pm

wabashene wrote:Thanks for the feedback chaps.

As the pics might show, there is a large root right under the area which probably precludes planting the root cutting close in or thread grafting.

Kind of favouring adding a false deadwood feature to disguise it.

I fashioned a QDJ (quickly detachable jin) for a juniper which does the job OK.

Thks

TimR






Hi Tim,

if I see that flush off new growth surrounding that large wood a useful solution pops to mind! Look at the picture below:


If you look at A : you see one off the new shoots that normaly grow plenty around these large wounds.
B: Same shoot after one growing season. You can cut it now or wait a other growing season.
C: This is what you are left with after you cut it off! The large wound is closed more than it would have done with out this sacrifice branch! And with a scarify branch there is less change off loosing branches above the wound and roots below the wound!
D: Shows a other place were a small branch is allowed to grow just like C (Yellow line is they old scareline).
Now imagine letting new shoots grow around those new rims surrounding those new cuts! More closure and more natural looking smaller wounds/scars!
I am doing this on one of my Hawthorns and it works very well with lesser stress to the poor tree! It will take some years, but he, who is in a hurry! You can hollow it out any time later!
Later I will post a way to cut such a larch branch, root or top, while leaving only a small scare!
DRUMS PLEASE!!!! Very Happy
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Guest on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:31 am

Hi Wabashene

Please tell me the reason why, you decided to not start up, building crown, already 4 years ago.
And how you plan to make the lower branches to be fatter, and thinner furter up, to the top.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Hans van Meer. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:32 pm

Hi everybody,
here is the picture I promised last night.
It's a close up of a large wound on one of mine Hawthorn shohin. Last season I allowed one of the new shoot to grow for one season and then I cut it right back.



A: Is the line of the original wound.
B: Is the new wound line after just one season.
I am sure that this year new small shoots will appear around that new and old wound line and than I will do just the same as last year. Closing the wound slowly and making it look more natural, with smaller wounds that are in proportion to the size of this small tree!
I think, that when possible, this is a better solution than just carving for the sake of carving! Just take your time to try to close the wounds on your Hawthorn as far as possible with this natural technique. It is not that hard and you can do it will you are working on the ramification over the next 4 or 5 years! And if it dont work out in the end you have at least saved the tree from a lot of stress, because the sap flows around that overly large wound were allowed to keep on flowing strong because of these sacrifice shoots. I think it is a great option to try out wile you are shaping the rest of the tree!
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:26 pm

Hi Yvonne,

I've basically gone back to a few key branches low down on a solid trunk in order to build a tree structure from the bottom up which is how it is usually done as I understand it.

Generally, on most types of tree the top is more vigorous and will grow faster than the bottom so forming the apex is the last piece of the puzzle - not the first.

Hi Hans,

Thanks for the input.

I have been letting shoots grow freely from the base at the back but trimmed them off the other day.

I will probably let them grow freely this year , as you suggest.

I can already see buds forming after 1 week of 6-8 DegC weather in UK South.

This tree is a bit of a mess really but I dug it and kept it alive so will carry on with it for a while yet.

I have smaller/better collected hawthorns that are ramifying very well.

I also can't this being styled as a "hawthorn" - when I figure out how to style it that is.

Very Happy

TimR


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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  Hans van Meer. on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:48 pm

wabashene wrote:


Hi Hans,

Thanks for the input.

I have been letting shoots grow freely from the base at the back but trimmed them off the other day.

I will probably let them grow freely this year , as you suggest.

I can already see buds forming after 1 week of 6-8 DegC weather in UK South.

This tree is a bit of a mess really but I dug it and kept it alive so will carry on with it for a while yet.

I have smaller/better collected hawthorns that are ramifying very well.

I also can't this being styled as a "hawthorn" - when I figure out how to style it that is.

Very Happy

TimR

That's good to hear! Let us know how you get along with closing that wound! And dont give up on the poor little tree because it's a bit off a mess at this present point. It makes it all the more fulfilling if you succeed to make something beautiful out of it! Smile
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Update

Post  wabashene on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:05 pm

Made the decision to take the top off this.

Looks like I may need to book a slot at the Burrs Carving Clinic as I can see a bit more potential in this collected tree now.

But which way round I wonder?
:-)

thks

timR

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  BobbyLane on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:17 pm

Hi, what direction did you decide to take the tree, how has it progressed? Thanks

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:06 pm

Hi Bobby,

Only just saw this reply sorry.

Still pretty much unchanged although I have started training a potential leader  by notching and pulling up the red circled branch with cable ties.

I think the front showing the hollow is favourite and I keep debating whether it should be carved through to get a sort of split tree thing going on.

I haven't done much big style with my trees this year apart from keeping them healthy and well tended.

Gave them all a good rest actually.

Have got a bit paranoid after killing a much loved Japanese White Pine last year to be honest.

Thks

timR




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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  BobbyLane on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:54 pm



Hi Tim, thanks for the reply, i stumbled across this thread while researching threads for my own Hawthorn so was interested to see how it turned out.

Im no expert but i prefer the image on the right as the front. IMHO i wouldnt take the carved area deeper, i think if you do plan to used the carved area as a front, you need to make it look more natural, IMHO the lines/edges are a little smooth/straight and uniform if thats the right word. if was mine, i'd reduce the straight taper less bit at the top maybe further, to a lower leader than what you had in mind. its just my thoughts, dont do anything drastic without thinking through.

Cheers buddy

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Re: Hawthorn Root Problem

Post  wabashene on Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:39 pm

Hi,

I also like the the other front and am covering myself as I am also training a potential leader that side as well :-)

The big hollow is where I took out 2 extra big chop scars and a high root (as described earlier/above) and, yes, it would need a good bit of work to look anywhere near convincing.

A job for an expert methinks!

thks

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