Chinese Elm- First repotting

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Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:46 pm

Hello,

I have the mentioned bonsai about 2 years ago. When I bought it i just want to be sure the bonsai survive my first steps as an amateur gardener in the world of bonsai.
The first year was finished with good results so I decided in this spring I re-potting my tree.
Find attached some photos about the results:





Now i waiting for the results and to see which branch are alive and which is not after the winter. When I can figure it out i start to wiring to Hokidachi style.

If do you have any remark, proposal, criticism I gladly welcome them.

P.S.: Sorry for the easy english. I write from Hungary.

Thank you.

kenikol
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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Marty Weiser on Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:03 am

Looks good. I also like to get them repotted and find out what is really alive and well before doing much styling. It looks like there may be too many branches starting from the trunk in my view - it is bushy. However, that is a good problem to have - it is easy to cut off the ones you don't want. The English is fine - a million times better than my Hungarian.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  BobbyLane on Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:15 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNo-igPgO0

Start from the inside out and remove dead branches, crossing branches, branches that snake back, leggy weak branches with long internodes. Keep all the strong growth and try to maintain the broom image. take your time, the vid will help.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:48 pm

Thank you guys the support.

I just have thinking two other question:

1)
Should I be better stance (in one or two years later) if I cut back the branches into the trunk and let grown a whole new branches as long as I want, or I should get better results with the current branches and the wiring them?

2)
Could you guess how many years old this little fellow? I bought it 2 and half year ago but the size of the trunk not change too much.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Marty Weiser on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:44 am

If the branches after you remove the parts as BobbyLen suggests are reasonably well placed with good thickness for the style them keep them. The major reasons to cut back to the trunk and regrow the branches are that they are too thick or are badly placed.

Without a more detailed look, a good guess is that the tree was 4 - 6 years old when you got it - grown fairly quickly and then cut back hard.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:49 pm

Hello,

I'm back, as i promised.

Now i had figured it out which branches are alive and I'm done with the wiring. I spent more than 2 hour to wire and cut out the small branches.
I used 2 type of wire 0.6 mm and 1 mm for the bigger guys. Both of them made from copper. I know it is not the best for deciduous trees but this was cheep in the hobby store. The color of the wires is.... uhh... so yeah... I know not the best for the bonsai, not so natural color but this is my first wiring so I'm happy with it.

So some picture before-after:





The tools for the wiring, nothing special but it was useful



If do you have any remark, proposal, criticism I gladly welcome them.

Kenikol

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  JimLewis on Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:42 pm

Nice job. I've never seen copper wire that looks like that, but . . .

I might suggest removing this big stub and the associated branch (marked in red).


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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:52 pm

the copper wire does not look like it was annealed...

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2439-annealing-copper-wire

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:06 pm

JimLewis wrote:Nice job.  I've never seen copper wire that looks like that, but . . .

I might suggest removing this big stub and the associated branch (marked in red).


Thanks for the noticing. I truly consider to cut out that dead branch. However all of my tools is listed on the picture below for this operations. I will ask someone to lend me a nice pinchers for this one cut.

About the wire:
It is not just copper wire, the packaging said one is "Brass wire", the other one is "Copper wire silver plated". I bought them from a DIY hobby shop. Originally you can make some kind of jewelry (earrings, necklace, bracelets...etc) from them.

Thank You for the support. If anyone have some advise please do not hold back Smile

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:51 pm

it is doubtful that the wire you have used will do the job you would like it to do...
if aluminum or copper bonsai wire is not available, you can get regular copper wire and anneal it yourself (fun and easy)

when removing the wire, do not untwist it, simply cut it off with a wire cutters.

the branch can be removed with a regular garden pruning shears, though the cut will not be as nice, so do not cut it flush to the trunk as you can always go back when you have a proper tool and make it nice.

water-proof wood glue can be used to seal the wound after the cut.


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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Marty Weiser on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:33 am

What does the tree look like from the back left hand corner? I am thinking that might be a good view.


Last edited by Marty Weiser on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added more)

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  augustine on Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:29 pm

This looks more like zelkova serrata than chinese elm, however, the same cultivation and treatment.

Some call zelKova "Japanese gray bark elm."

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:15 pm

Marty Weiser wrote:What does the tree look like from the back left hand corner? I am thinking that might be a good view.

Hello,

I take some picture, sorry for the bad quality only mobile phone available now.

If you look from the front, this is the left hand side:


And the Right hand side:


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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Marty Weiser on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:54 am

The pictures work. My idea is to have the trunk and big heavy branch form a V that continues to split as you move up the tree. You would lose some of the lower branches. This would be a fairly traditional broom style, but I think it is better than having a big heavy branch in the front.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Marty Weiser wrote:The pictures work. My idea is to have the trunk and big heavy branch form a V that continues to split as you move up the tree. You would lose some of the lower branches. This would be a fairly traditional broom style, but I think it is better than having a big heavy branch in the front.

It is a good idea. But my question when I should do this? I was re-potted the bonsai on 31.03.2015 not fully one month ago. During the re-potting i cut back the roots, now during the wiring process the bonsai lost the high amount of the leaves. Now my bonsai have no roots and leaves. Smile

Now i dig out my tree and rotate to the right position or should I wait for the next spring and re-pot again?

Other question:
As I see the bonsai growing new sprouts from the middle of the main trunk (see attached picture). I think I have to wait to make 7-8 leaves long to the bonsai can create more energy for the growing new foliage. Am I right?
Or should I cut down them as soon as possible to make sure the bonsai make leaves on the available branches? (in this case i think I risk to the bonsai run out of the current stock of energy and can't obtain new nutrition from the soil)


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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  denzel62 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:40 pm

kenikol wrote: However all of my tools is listed on the picture below for this operations. I will ask someone to lend me a nice pinchers for this one cut.



The tool that You should ask is a concave cropper:





and don't forget to protect the cut with healing product

regards

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:43 pm

kenikol wrote: Now i dig out my tree and rotate to the right position or should I wait for the next spring and re-pot again?

no need to repot now... wait until next year...

also no need to worry about establishing the "front" of the tree in the front of the pot until the tree itself is established.

having a general future plan for a "front" is a good idea, but do not be surprised when the "front" changes

and changes

and changes

and changes again Wink


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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:45 pm

denzel62 wrote:
kenikol wrote: However all of my tools is listed on the picture below for this operations. I will ask someone to lend me a nice pinchers for this one cut.



The tool that You should ask is a concave cropper:





and don't forget to protect the cut with healing product

regards

that is actually a knob cutter...

this should help:

http://guide.makebonsai.com/how-to-use-bonsai-tools

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link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:24 am

beer city snake wrote:
kenikol wrote: Now i dig out my tree and rotate to the right position or should I wait for the next spring and re-pot again?

no need to repot now... wait until next year...

also no need to worry about establishing the "front" of the tree in the front of the pot until the tree itself is established.

having a general future plan for a "front" is a good idea, but do not be surprised when the "front" changes

and changes

and changes

and changes again Wink


OK I will do it in the next spring.
In other hand should I re-arrange the wired branches now, to look good with the rotated new front view? I think it should be a good idea because in this year the bonsai look not so good but In the next year I got a tree with a good foliage and a good shape. All I will have to do to re-pot into a good position.

Thanks

kenikol
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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  kenikol on Wed May 06, 2015 8:52 pm

Hello,

a small update. The tree is growing well.


Many new little branches comes up from the maint trunk and from the middle of the tree:



Should I do something the small new branches or leave them growing? I'm patient and I don't want to cut them back if it is not necessary, because the new leves produce more energy to the tree.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  M. Frary on Thu May 07, 2015 2:56 am

If you don't want or need them cut them off. Be mindful that everytime you cut something off of one of these trees they will push out a bud somewhere. That is what makes elm trees so great. If you cut something off you wish you hadn't there is no need to worry,it will grow back.
Also you need to keep an eye on those wires. These trees grow fast as the wire will be fine one day the next it's digging in. I usually only have to leave it on for no more than 3 weeks once the tree starts growing.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 8:11 am

Hi Kenikol

The unwanted branches in the last photo should have ben removed as they emerged long time ago, as they will make a unwanted clump in the middle of the trunk, like the are now... now will they make problems with thick callus, when they are removed, but they should be removed now, if you dont want them....As they are now, would I consider to remove the trunk in the middle, and one of the thin branch in both sides, then you can avoid the unwanted clump.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  BobbyLane on Thu May 07, 2015 12:56 pm

Here are some links that helped me, you will find them useful

http://bonsaibark.com/2009/11/02/pruning-deciduous-bonsai-2-chinese-elm/

http://www.cutebonsaitree.com/branch-rules.html

http://bonsaijournal.com/elm-pinching.php

http://blog.dallasbonsai.com/creating-chinese-elm-bonsai-part-1/

http://blog.dallasbonsai.com/creating-chinese-elm-bonsai-part-2/


Here are some threads and comments from members on here, ive learnt so much from every single one.

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8418-chinese-elm-need-a-new-design

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t10332-chinese-elm

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2285-clean-sweep-show-us-your-brooms

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t4044-oak-style-broom-elm-evolution

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t11595-pruning-chinese-elm

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t6174-ulmus-parvifolia-5-years-progression

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t2224-which-broom-a-chinese-elm-one


Its looking a lot better now, as others have said, prune off the the growth you dont want and concentrate in focusing the energy into the branches you want to keep, let the primary, secondary and tertiary branches grow out and in winter later winter you can tidy it all up again keeping within your broom image. you will have a better idea after reading all these links Wink

Start looking at some of the old Oak trees in the parks and take pics of how the branches grow, note the way on most deciduous trees, the primary branches want to rise up and the secondary branches sometimes droop..on some old trees the lowest branches are so heavy they either sag or go horizontal, but this isnt always the case, check the huge Oak in my avatar... really its all about figuring out what works well for your particular tree.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  Rui Marques on Thu May 07, 2015 2:59 pm

Great information source.

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

Post  DougB on Thu May 07, 2015 6:46 pm

Hey guys, you Really Did Good!

Nice to see good helpful post and no bickering.

Good job. Thanks

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Re: Chinese Elm- First repotting

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