DIY Cold Closet Project

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  JudyB on Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:08 pm

No reason for upset K, the rational discussion of techniques and information is why I still come to these forums.

My HB is well, actually I have a second one now too. They are a fine species that are underused in my opinion.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to you as well.

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:07 pm

Yes,

Judy,

I have great memories of the two large trees in the backyard, when we lived in Lafayette,LA. and I am happy to say with the one accident, they are all still with me, and more on the way.
Because, it's a standing fridge the limit is 3 inch trunks [ 8 cm ] to about 15" tall [ 38 cm ].

Guy Guidry had one on-line that is amazing !!

Memories of the 3 day spring of Lafayette - Laughing

Yes, I think more N.Americans should try their hand with them.
Once again.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year !!!
2nd of Jan. is my repotting day - Yippee !!!!!!!!
Laters.
Khaimraj

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t7974-hackberry-bonsai


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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:57 pm

JudyB wrote:No reason for upset K, the rational discussion of techniques and information is why I still come to these forums.

hey judy... i am glad that you do still come by, (and you leo, khai, etal...)...
us novices can learn alot from all of you and if i dont learn anything in a day, it was not worth getting up in the morning Wink
(but i will apologize if my "questioning" comes off as "challenging" as that is not my intent)

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  coh on Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:38 pm

I find it sad that people feel the need to apologize for asking questions. Questions should be challenging. No one has all the answers, everyone can still learn something if they are open to it.

coh
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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  mrmikecn on Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:11 am

The frost line last year was down to seven feet, in some places here in Milwaukee. This was reported from some of the waterworks crews working in the field. Do conifers need light in winter when it's below, let's say 35F ,,,, NO. When they get packed in snow it's not too much colder than thirty degrees F snd they do just fine. Light is NOT the concern in winter, it's drying out. Conifers need to be somewhat moist in winter but not wet. This is the concern when over wintering in a dry building like a garage or shed. That is all.

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  Precarious on Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:15 pm

Maybe a new forum could be added in ibc- Mythbusters.

Precarious
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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:12 pm

mrmikecn wrote:The frost line last year was down to seven feet, in some places here in Milwaukee. This was reported from some of the waterworks crews working in the field. Do conifers need light in winter when it's below, let's say 35F ,,,, NO. When they get packed in snow it's not too much colder than thirty degrees F snd they do just fine. Light is NOT the concern in winter, it's drying out. Conifers need to be somewhat moist in winter but not wet. This is the concern when over wintering in a dry building like a garage or shed. That is all.

well, well, well looks like another of our esteemed AAC brethren has popped his forum cherry
(the waterworks reference was a dead give-away Wink )

coh wrote:I find it sad that people feel the need to apologize for asking questions. Questions should be challenging.

i wasnt apologizing for "asking"... just concerned that "challenging" could come across as antagonistic Wink

so, i am still left with the question of "need" for light versus "can make use of" light.

am i correct that even though they may not "neeeeeed" winter light,
they (conifers) do make use of it, if it is available (albeit at a very very reduced rate) ???

i am talking about late fall/early-mid winter before temps fall below the -10c/+14f for an extended period of time (at which time they completely stop all processes)...

i just really hope that i didnt throw $500 away by installing additional (vented) glass block windows in my garage Rolling Eyes
(no worries about them adding detrimental warmth, so no need to go back into that subject)

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  coh on Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:28 pm

Kevin, all I know is, many have been wintering their trees (both deciduous and conifer) in low or no light, below freezing conditions for years, and their trees have done fine (think - for example, Bill V). So can the trees make use of light - I would think so, at least until the root masses freeze completely. Do they need it? I think the examples of trees in the wild being buried under feet of snow all winter prove they don't need light. Would they be stronger with light...maybe? I try to keep my hardier conifers (especially ponderosa pine, spruce, cedar) outside as long as possible...just brought the last of them in within the past week.

I guess if I had a location that stayed below freezing yet got natural light (but no direct sun), I'd store my conifers there. As it is, I do put them in the parts of my shelter that get more (but very little) light.

coh
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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:42 pm

right chris... i get it that they dont need the light...

just wondering if someone will say that they (conifers) dont make use of it when it is available, until fully and completely dormant...

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  Leo Schordje on Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:09 pm

First, the most practical, and well proven way to winter conifers is as Bill Valvanis suggested. The previous answers are useful approximations.

Given that. From what I have read, yes, conifers can and do use light, make sugars whenever the temperatures are warm enough to do so. Metabolism and photosynthesis have their rates governed by temperature. At cold temperatures they are reduced and below species specific temperatures photosynthesis stops completely, and metabolism becomes very, very slow. (if metabolism stops completely - the tree is dead).

The evolutionary advantage of retaining foliage through the winter allows the tree to begin photosynthesis the minute temperatures are warm enough to do so. The needle shape for leaves minimizes moisture loss. The resinous sap of conifers is more or less "antifreeze" allowing the tree to move moisture around at temperatures that are below 32 F or 0 C. How much below? The exact answers are species specific.

Pinus banksiana, Pinus strobus, Tsuga canadensis can have some, significantly reduced photosynthesis down to about 28 F if I remember my some 30+ years ago reading right. These trees are found in norther boreal forests, zone 3 winter hardy. Similarly Pinus radiata (a sub-tropical timber tree - so research was actually done) is pretty much totally dormant at 35 F. Optimum photosynthetic rates for northern species such as P. strobus will occur somewhere around 60 F, optimum photosynthetic rates for southern species like P. radiata will occur somewhere around 70 or 75 F. For the vast majority of species no formal research has been done and there is no place you can readily look the species specific answers up. They just don't know. Searching timber production articles may yield some additional studies, but there is a lot to comb through to find answers.

So your glass block are not a "waste of time", but the amount of photosynthesis done in winter storage is quite low. For most practical applications wintering the trees in the dark is "good enough".

So to the best of my knowledge - for your question - is that nobody knows, yet. Warning - I have not combed the timber production literature for some 30+ years, so I could be wrong. Anyone know more?

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:50 pm

thanks leo !

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Re: DIY Cold Closet Project

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