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Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability

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M. Frary
GaryWood
fiona
Richard S
DjTommy
Precarious
JimLewis
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Sorcertree
Vance Wood
joewebb
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Post  Richard S Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:06 am

But Jim, surely the flaw in your argument is that this thread relates to someone who is a self confessed novice.

I absolutely agree that for a more experienced grower/artist there is no point buying lousy material just because it's cheap but for a beginner, is "one good tree" really better than a dozen lousy ones? I'm not so sure.

As little more than a beginner myself I would say that one of the biggest obstacles to progress that I have encountered is simply a lack of material to work on. Turning a piece of raw material into a decent, let alone great bonsai requires a wide range of horticultural and artistic skills. These skills need to be learned or at least practised.

There is very definitely a limit to how much you can work one tree however good (in terms of artistic potential) it may be. If learning/practising techniques is the objective then working a dozen lousy trees will actually teach you more in a shorter time than working just one good one. 

Of course that doesn't mean that those trees will develop into great bonsai! That would be a most unlikely outcome which is why I think that Vance was quite right to honestly point out the limitations of this material.

Telling the difference between what's "good" and what's "lousy" is a skill in it's own right and one that also needs to be practised. This is not an appeal to mediocrity or to be dishonest in assessing the merit of material presented on this forum. I'm simply suggesting that for a beginner, using this kind of material to practise on has some merit.

Of course working on much better material would certainly be preferable (and I accept that's essentially Vance's point) but for me and probably many others, obtaining that "better" material is not a cheap or easy option. Therefore I think it makes sense to hone your skills on cheap nursery trees so that when you do acquire more promising raw material you at least have some idea of what to do with it.


At least that's what I think now. As I said I am little more than a novice myself so perhaps all I am actually doing is exposing my own ignorance Very Happy.

Regards

Richard
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Post  Vance Wood Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:53 am

Richard S wrote:But Jim, surely the flaw in your argument is that this thread relates to someone who is a self confessed novice.

I absolutely agree that for a more experienced grower/artist there is no point buying lousy material just because it's cheap but for a beginner, is "one good tree" really better than a dozen lousy ones? I'm not so sure.

As little more than a beginner myself I would say that one of the biggest obstacles to progress that I have encountered is simply a lack of material to work on. Turning a piece of raw material into a decent, let alone great bonsai requires a wide range of horticultural and artistic skills. These skills need to be learned or at least practised.

There is very definitely a limit to how much you can work one tree however good (in terms of artistic potential) it may be. If learning/practising techniques is the objective then working a dozen lousy trees will actually teach you more in a shorter time than working just one good one. 

Of course that doesn't mean that those trees will develop into great bonsai! That would be a most unlikely outcome which is why I think that Vance was quite right to honestly point out the limitations of this material.

Telling the difference between what's "good" and what's "lousy" is a skill in it's own right and one that also needs to be practised. This is not an appeal to mediocrity or to be dishonest in assessing the merit of material presented on this forum. I'm simply suggesting that for a beginner, using this kind of material to practise on has some merit.

Of course working on much better material would certainly be preferable (and I accept that's essentially Vance's point) but for me and probably many others, obtaining that "better" material is not a cheap or easy option. Therefore I think it makes sense to hone your skills on cheap nursery trees so that when you do acquire more promising raw material you at least have some idea of what to do with it.


At least that's what I think now. As I said I am little more than a novice myself so perhaps all I am actually doing is exposing my own ignorance Very Happy.

Regards

Richard

Richard:  May I ask you to consider this.  What is the difference between wiring, pruning and styling a piece of material this thread started with and picking up another similarly priced but larger piece of material with a lot more branches and a fatter trunk?  I believe that the problem many have in an inability to visualize what a bonsai should look like.  You should check out people like Graham Potter who does take some non discript piece of material and turn it into something really beautiful.  I am not suggesting that you, or even my self, are at that point but; what this does show you is that the shape of a bonsai has to be in your head heart and soul.  

The little bitty sticks in pots are not intimidating and in the back of many minds failure is likely therefore there is no loss in either material or-----pride.  With larger material you simply give your self a chance to work with more options, more branches, more choices and yes more opportunities to make mistakes but thats how you learn.   Your learn by doing and doing nothing, which is what the material that started this thread is likened to, is as good, or bad, as not starting at all, especially if the grower is adamant in arguing that this is the developmental level they desire to remain at till they get better. You have to push yourself if you want to get better, your trees will not somehow magically improve if you don't or I don't. It took me a lot of years to learn that lesson as well, but here we are, trying to do bonsai the best we can.
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Post  fiona Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:13 am

Vance Wood wrote:[I believe that the problem many have in an inability to visualize what a bonsai should look like.

This hits the nail on the head for me, and I have of late been suggesting in my advice to beginners that, in addition to read up and join a club, that they spend some time looking at pics of good quality bonsai. That way, the difference between a good bonsai and a stick in a pot should become apparent. Many novices (and I am including myself some fifteen years ago) had little idea of what good bonsai look like when we started, especially since mallsai are for many the only "benchmark."

Another beginner posted on a different thread a few days ago, then came back a couple of days later to say how embarrassed he was at posting his stick in a pot now that he'd had gone and looked at good trees. Btw, this was one of the reasons why we set up our Gallery section a couple of years ago, so that members could have a visual reference and not have to wade through thousands of threads.

I am not saying don't use "lesser" material to practise on; that to me is sensible. But as Vance and others are trying to say, remember all things are relative and there is most definitely a better end of "lesser" out there.
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Post  Sorcertree Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:15 am

Parables have human characters.
It is a fable. Though the lead character does have the same attributes as a suicide bomber.

One that could be equally told by Joewebb, with who he is, being patient, dedicated, and full of vision.

Achieve - to get or attain by effort; gain; obtain

Most of the effort may be a practice of patience. Even so, the correct answer to the OP's question is simply yes.
He said "I obtained" with no further mention of "I", we don't know if he intends to have his great grandchildren see the end of the achievement.

Old people still start seeds.
Everything grows, Every tree started so thin.

A man enslaved by time has an end.
A man who prunes in spring is not enslaved by time.

Should we agree to tell Joe to be less patient?

He did not ask for our opinions on that!

What if the picture was of a seed?

Sorce

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Post  Sorcertree Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:31 am

This is not Internet Finished Masterpeice Bonsai Club.

Bonsai is generational, how quick do the impatient forget that.
Bonsai is seeds.
Bonsai is the cows that smash those awesome European Deciduous Yamadori.
Bonsai is a field of the OPs material.
Bonsai is our children's children's children.
Bonsai is wind and fire.
Bonsai is Bans on collecting.
Bonsai is part life, part death.
Bonsai is rewarding. Time equals value of reward.
Bonsai is easily pigeonholed. To no value.

Sorce

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Post  JimLewis Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:32 pm

But Jim, surely the flaw in your argument is that this thread relates to someone who is a self confessed novice.

If we had still been talking about that tree at that point, maybe so, but the discussion had digressed as discussions tend to do in this very haphazard environment. We'd already said whatever could be said about his tree.

All beginners should do as Fiona suggests and study nice bonsai before they leap into the sport, but very few will do it that way (or know that they should), but will go out and buy a cheap plant, stare at it a bit then call for help.
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Post  Vance Wood Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:06 pm

JimLewis wrote:Of course, people buy "lousy stuff" because it is cheap.  That's why Lowes and Home Depot seem so popular  in North America (and wherever else they may be).   They end up buying a dozen cheap (AKA Lousy) plants, when they could have spent that same amount of money on ONE good plant at a real nursery or -- even -- a bonsai nursery (better than a bonsai STORE).

Many folks even brag about how "cheap" the plant they bought was.  Go figure.

There is a distinct difference between cheap and lousy, one does not include or preclude another.  For years I have purchased cheap Mugo Pines from the nursery trade and cheap Scots Pines from farms that cultivate material for Christmas trees.  I also buy shimpaku Junipers from the nursery trade when I can find them.  All of the trees I have are cheap, only one was close to $75, every thing else has been in the under $50 range and some under $10.  If you count the liners I get from the farms we are looking at under $5 in some cases.       Though many would sit back and chuckle under their breaths:  "They're still lousy"  and in some respects they would be right.  But I have won numerous awards in several states for my lousy trees and I am happy that every year I can see them getting better.

Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability - Page 2 VYT9jvk

Five dollar Mugo

Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability - Page 2 CgLrA0G

Three Dollar Mugo

Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability - Page 2 G48hiG7

$20 Mugo

Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability - Page 2 2THMJek

Same Mugo Today as it was redesigned for our clubs 41st show.  Of course this tree would never qualify for KoKuFuTen or anything like that but I bet I could sell it for a couple of thousand dollars tody with little trouble---if I wanted to sell it.

Juniperus Pfitzeriana Aurea Material Suitability - Page 2 CAfpfae

Three Dollar Mugo as it is after the beginnings of a redesign this summer.
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Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:59 pm

thanks for showing that vance, as i my self was just going to make the point that bigger material does not have to break the bank...

i have scored a bunch of things in the late fall here in the upper midwest when all the nurseries are on clearance, clarence... 50-75% off etc... one place this year had enormous bald cypress (8-10') for about $40 sale price... i had to pass, but one of our AAC guys got one with a super fat ass trunk and chopped it down to about 2' tall)

is it hard to swallow, taking a big tree and cutting it way down the first time ?
you betcha !

but i have more than 1 that i have collected that i wish i would have followed that advise at first,
but i didnt and instead, here it is 2-3 years later and i am basically starting over by doing so now...
what did i lose ?
nothing more than a couplafew growing seasons...

getting comfortable with the hack-back was not easy, but it helps to see the results when others have done it...
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Post  Vance Wood Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:30 pm

beer city snake wrote:thanks for showing that vance, as i my self was just going to make the point that bigger material does not have to break the bank...

i have scored a bunch of things in the late fall here in the upper midwest when all the nurseries are on clearance, clarence... 50-75% off etc... one place this year had enormous bald cypress (8-10') for about $40 sale price... i had to pass, but one of our AAC guys got one with a super fat ass trunk and chopped it down to about 2' tall)

is it hard to swallow, taking a big tree and cutting it way down the first time ?
you betcha !

but i have more than 1 that i have collected that i wish i would have followed that advise at first,
but i didnt and instead, here it is 2-3 years later and i am basically starting over by doing so now...
what did i lose ?
nothing more than a couplafew growing seasons...

getting comfortable with the hack-back was not easy, but it helps to see the results when others have done it...

Good for you and I bet you had what is more easily described as a shit-laod-o-fun doing the work on the trees. That is probably the most important reason for doing this in the firs place. Bonsai takes patience but bonsai is also fun. Bonsai need not be an exercise in understanding geologic time. I have this philosophy: It is better to play around with big stuff where a big mistake does not mean a lot,---- than it is playing around with little stuff where even a little mistake can have big time consequences----if you live long enough to realize or even understand what you have done.
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Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:00 pm

right on, vance !

and yes, just as in my other artistic endeavors ( https://www.etsy.com/shop/BeerCitySnake )
if it aint fun, i aint doing it.
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Post  Guest Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:50 pm

I've come to the conclusion that Vance Wood has it absolutely correct in his analysis of Bonsai....and starting large and cutting down.

and from all my observations over the years and viewing many, many World Class Bonsai examples it is always about the Base or Trunk of the Bonsai as much as the Foilage and Esthetic...

Its unfair in a lot of ways but that is How it is....

Anyone and everyone with a smidgeon of artistic ability can arrange several "sticks in a pot" in one afternoon and then call it Penjing or Saikei, it is extremely rewarding and appealing to do so...

But True and Truthful Bonsai is a Class all its own....

I am now going to sell off all my Sticks and Landscapes aka Penjing, Saikei and comitt my life to Truthful Bonsai, thank you Vance Wood...

Bolero

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Post  Vance Wood Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Holy smoke guys you'll cause my head to explode.  Honestly all that I have posted I have learned by finding out what does not work and what goes no where.  Many would say I should have taken classes and they would be right but then I would only be teaching what some other person has come up with and those, who with me were stuck without the finances to do that,  had to settle doing it by themselves or just settle.  Everything has a purpose under heaven as the proverb says.

Kevin:  This should be our, Moto stolen from you:  if it aint fun, i aint doing it. I remember right before I went to Viet Nam there was a cartoon of Marmaduke:  A really big Great Dane humping a Volks Wagon.  The caption:  If it feels good do it.  If I offended anyone I am truly sorry, just don't let anybody see you laugh and you'll be fine.
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Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:31 pm

Vance Wood wrote: Kevin:  This should be our, Moto stolen from you:  if it aint fun, i aint doing it. I remember right before I went to Viet Nam there was a cartoon of Marmaduke:  A really big Great Dane humping a Volks Wagon.  The caption:  If it feels good do it.  If I offended anyone I am truly sorry, just don't let anybody see you laugh and you'll be fine.

feel free to stick it on a t-shirt, vance !

and the day that someone has to hide a laugh from others is a sad day indeed...

but we digress Wink
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Post  Precarious Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:01 pm

Joe, what are your plans for this tree pictured? Grow it in a pot? Plant it in the ground?
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Post  Vance Wood Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:45 pm

Precarious wrote:Joe, what are your plans for this tree pictured?  Grow it in a pot?  Plant it in the ground?

There are two possibilities with this tree. One is to plant it in the ground and control how it grows or cut it back really hard to get a lot of back budding and make a small sized bonsai.
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Post  Vance Wood Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:46 pm

Precarious wrote:Joe, what are your plans for this tree pictured?  Grow it in a pot?  Plant it in the ground?

There are two possibilities with this tree. One is to plant it in the ground and control how it grows or cut it back really hard to get a lot of back budding and make a small sized bonsai. The tree is not a hopeless case but it is a project no matter what you choose to do with it.
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Post  Guest Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:42 pm

Personally I think the possibilities for this tree are endless....it can be grown as a Singular Bonsai ...in the ground or in a suitable Bonsai pot, it could be incorporated into a Saikei landscape alone or with other Shimpaku, it could be displayed in a Penjing arrangement alone or with several others...all up to you and your imagination.

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Post  Vance Wood Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:06 pm

Bolero wrote:Personally I think the possibilities for this tree are endless....it can be grown as a Singular Bonsai ...in the ground or in a suitable Bonsai pot, it could be incorporated into a Saikei landscape alone or with other Shimpaku, it could be displayed in a Penjing arrangement alone or with several others...all up to you and your imagination.

I understand what you are saying and of course you are right but everything you have pointed out needs the one thing everyone seems to want to ignore. Even though with proper bonsai techniques you can artifically add hundreds of years in an illusion of age, but you have to have something to work with first. There are many techniques and time is one of them.

In all honesty and with a bit of tongue in cheek: You could take this tree out into the mountains, find a suitable place above ten-thousand feet and plant it in the ground. Wait 200 years come back and harvest the tree. When you look at the tree the way you have described it you have to first remember it is not a Shimpaku it is a Phitzer. A related tree but will not grow the same way the Shimp will. The arrangements you have described all take at least ten years to develop the tree. The only really quick path to a bonsai would be to cut it back really hard and watch the back budding as you attempt to make a Shohin bonsai of it. This process will possible take three years if you are lucky but more realistically five at the least. The only way you can make a tree jump forward in time is to work with the existing material, find a believable point and cut back to it. That believable point must give the impression of a mature tree, this particular material does not seem to have much except a FAIR, no excellent, base that could be utilized by growth closer in.

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Post  Guest Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:58 pm

Vance, appreciation of Bonsai usually lies in the perception of the viewer, be amateur or professional.
However as you have, in an earlier post, detailed.... there is Bonsai and then there are the others...

I believe your observations and commentary are based upon 50+ years of Bonsai cultivation and experience and do not necessarily fit into the context of the casual or beginner or even lightly experienced (as myself) Bonsai enthusiast.

I believe most Bonsai gardeners appreciate Early Gratification and are usually content with Pruning, Potting, Arranging and Displaying their Bonsai for themselves and others to see and also appreciate without waiting 15 or 20 years.

This gentlemens nursery Juniper fits into this category and he should appreciate and cultivate it as such...

I, OTOH, have grown into with your opinion's and advice to pursue the Truth in Bonsai and make my next Bonsai Project, most likely purchased from The Flower Market in Dundee, a Pine or Juniper with a decently ample Base or Trunk to justify a Truthful Bonsai worthy of Bonsai Gardening...

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Post  Vance Wood Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:37 pm

Bolero wrote:Vance, appreciation of Bonsai usually lies in the perception of the viewer, be amateur or professional.
However as you have, in an earlier post, detailed.... there is Bonsai and then there are the others...

I believe your observations and commentary are based upon 50+ years of Bonsai cultivation and experience and do not necessarily fit into the context of the casual or beginner or even lightly experienced (as myself) Bonsai enthusiast.

I believe most Bonsai gardeners appreciate Early Gratification and are usually content with Pruning, Potting, Arranging and Displaying their Bonsai for themselves and others to see and also appreciate without waiting 15 or 20 years.

This gentlemens nursery Juniper fits into this category and he should appreciate and cultivate it as such...

I, OTOH, have grown into with your opinion's and advice to pursue the Truth in Bonsai and make my next Bonsai Project, most likely purchased from The Flower Market in Dundee, a Pine or Juniper with a decently ample Base or Trunk to justify a Truthful Bonsai worthy of Bonsai Gardening...

My point remains the same. I understand what you are saying and know where you are coming from having been there my self, however; there is a major difference. When I was there I was without a teacher or knowledge of the concept of hack down to make bonsai. I, like you and the OP, thought you have to start with little measly trees and coax them into becoming a bonsai after many years. Funny thing is that is true too. Understanding that many of the trees I now work on have come up this way but many more, are the result of the cut, hack and slash down of larger trees, into smaller bonsai. Many of the trees you see me producing now, took all of that time mentioned in development to come to a stage where doing a couple of days of design work turns them into the kind of bonsai starting with older and larger material would have provided.

It does not take more work to cut down a tree, in fact, outside of it being fun to do, it is easier and the educational benefit is far more than just fooling around with a twig. Look at it this way. You throw some wire on a twig and then you sit there for another year and hope the tree grows out some new growth and goes somewhere. You watch it and it seems to be doing nothing you want it to do. It is growing out on the ends and away from that sort of design you had in mind. This too is the truth, this is what happens, I know, I have done this.

The guy may be happy with his tree but that does not mean that as a group we should not address the issues created by this kind of thinking. I guess I am stuck. Somehow in my ignorance I seem to have come to believe that most people getting into bonsai did not get into bonsai after looking at a stick in a pot. What led you into bonsai? A stick in a pot or one of these beautiful Centurion trees you see in the books and cultivated trees you see in the shows. This leads me to believe that being shown a better way to get the kind of results that led them to bonsai in the first place would be grabbed onto like a life preserver to a drowning man.

One of the most telling quotes from your above statement defending the idea of cultivating one of these sticks in pots: Without waiting 15 or 20 years as the reason. Did you think about this when you said it? Waiting 15 to 20 years is exactly what this thinking will cost the OP. When you have to grow up a tree into a bonsai, which is what you are suggesting is OK, there is one thing you cannot add and that is the illusion of age. Simply put, this tree will always look like a young tree waiting to get old. On the other hand cutting down a larger tree will in essence impart the illusion of age by providing some branch structure, some foliage pads, some fatness to the trunk.

With two or three years of development you will have a tree that may look hundreds of years old. Two or three years with a stick in a pot you may wind up looking at a tree that is nowhere closer to a bonsai than it was when you put it in the pot in the first place. I certainly don't mean to harp on the same old thing and if I didn't care I would simply sit back and chuckle as you guys struggled through the next several years till you figure out that I was right or you gave up bonsai in frustration.
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Post  Guest Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:55 pm

Vance, your point is well taken and I agree...

A young undeveloped specimen will for many, many years look like a undeveloped specimen....

OTOH a well developed, mature Bonsai will look exactly like a well developed, mature Bonsai...

I like and enjoy all of it as Bonsai Gardening....

but I really Admire, Respect and Appreciate the Old, Mature, True Bonsai, to me they are Wonderments...

thanks for your commentary and thoughts throughout...


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Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:15 pm

hhhmmmmmm scratch

wonder why the original poster hasnt replied... ?

hey joe webb !
you out there ?


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Post  Vance Wood Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:14 pm

beer city snake wrote:hhhmmmmmm scratch

wonder why the original poster hasnt replied... ?

hey joe webb !
you out there ?



I probably scared htm off, or pissed him off or both. I have the tendency to do that with people.I hope he listened and I hope he comes back.
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Post  Precarious Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:38 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
I probably scared htm off, or pissed him off or both. I have the tendency to do that with people.I hope he listened and I hope he comes back.

37 sometimes testy and vigorous replies uuuuuusually remotely related to a very simple question. What's not to come back to??? Suspect
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Post  Vance Wood Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:29 pm

Precarious wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:
I probably scared htm off, or pissed him off or both.  I have the tendency to do that with people.I hope he listened and I hope he comes back.

37 sometimes testy and vigorous replies uuuuuusually remotely related to a very simple question.  What's not to come back to??? Suspect

I am not sure what you mean about testy or remotely related to the question.  Sometimes questions are not so simple and concerning this one, the initial question as to whether this tree is acceptable for bonsai is really not such an easy question to answer honestly.  I don't think anything posted on this thread is unrelated to the core of this thread.  It really has come down to a question of perceptions and judgements.

It really comes down to the point of understanding what level the poster understands what he wants to accomplish, what he has and what he expects in some sort of reasonable time.  His drawing shows what he expects of the material he has.  He has demonstrated that he has a degree of artistic ability but an inability to comprehend  an idea of how to get there with this tree.  Now I am sure if someone was to offer a method that would make that happen sooner rather than latter he would be glad to know it.  It is that choice we have been talking about.

Now if it is a question of who chased off the OP I take full responsibility.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
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