Bonsai Citizenship

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  JimLewis on Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:17 pm

Thanks for that! I was gonna rant about the passenger pigeon or Carolina parakeet, but you soaked up all the cold water Vance poured on this discussion very well.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:31 am

I do wonder if the ancient Chinese statesmen who retired on massive pensions to pretend they were poor, and went to live on large estates [ with just a few maids, gardeners, hired help ] in the Southern Mountains, thought about the trees they had dug up for decoration, and what might happen down the roads of history?????????

For me folk who collect, want to show off, otherwise they would quietly do it and only a few select friends would know.
I keep my trees in the backyard, surrounded by a bamboo hedge, and now live in fear that my trees might one day grow legs and walk out.

So much so, I have been contemplating doing over the roof as a concrete floor with walls ontop to navel height and moving all of the trees up there.Pointing the metal stands in, about 2' [ 61 cm ]. So anyone looking up would only see walls.

When I go into our jungles / forests, it is to enjoy the walk along the streams, look at the birds, stand in awe of the trees,.

"Leave nothing, but footprints,
Take nothing, but photos."
Laters.
Khaimraj

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:44 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
"Leave nothing but footprints,
Take nothing but photos."

mountain top or sea-shore - one of my favorite quotes.

except some of us have been known to take some things besides photos...
mainly the discarded refuse of other people that are not so like-minded Mad

i say bring back Iron Eyes Cody

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  appalachianOwl on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:54 pm

you know that guy is not really native right? we are all at this point, in my opinion, just choosing our distractions from the real issues of the world, or at least in our own respective countries. down with technology and corporations/government, the destroyers of good things....

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:56 pm

appalachianOwl wrote:you know that guy is not really native right?

yes i do and it does matter...
as a kid, the impact that commercial had on me was huge and because of that commercial i was anti-litter from a very early age...
to the point where i would scold anyone for littering, from my friends, to my parents, to strangers...

still do to this day...

i was at a park yesterday and someone pulled up to a garbage can, tossed a bag in its general direction and missed...
they saw that they missed but still drove off...
i was way across the parking lot, but still yelled "YOU MISSED" and they came back and picked it up.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Precarious on Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:38 pm

appalachianOwl wrote:we are all at this point, in my opinion, just choosing our distractions from the real issues of the world....

This is where the Eagles should start singing 'Hotel California'. Every activity in life has a double-edged sword. We can dance to remember (what we are created for), or dance to forget. If any bonsai activity is done for a higher purpose, we ultimately make good choices and good results come to fruition. If it is done with a self-serving goal in mind, those results ultimately fade and are lost. This is my personal opinion, and is not at all limited to bonsai gardening. A corporation can be good, if for example its leadership works from a focus of service to people, respect for rights and resources, and service to a higher goal than profit. Even a philanthropist, I believe, is dancing to forget if that service is done to gain personal accolades and fame. Like a wave, there will be a short-term effect, but it will not be lasting.

I believe stewardship does not have to look any one way or have a narrow focus, but if we approach this art with higher purpose lasting good will result.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  appalachianOwl on Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:20 am

I was in a weird spot this morn, on the war path so to speak, after a good long hike, i apologize for any negative connotation or under tones, had nothing to do with bonsai at all. I agree for sure David, but as for a corporation could be "good" i would not go so far Wink. And i was just saying Kevin, no negativity your way either, i am glad your got a positive message from it.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:29 am

appalachianOwl wrote: And i was just saying Kevin, no negativity your way either, i am glad your got a positive message from it.

no worries, my woodland friend...

the weather man
and the crazy chief
one says sun
and one says sleet...

name that tune scratch

HOOT HOOT !!!

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Precarious on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:37 am

Good corporation- haven't met one yet, but hear tell...

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Precarious on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:43 am

Oh and btw, that commercial had a big effect on me as a kid, too. What was that, 45 years ago? Lordy.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Van on Tue May 12, 2015 5:12 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
Precarious wrote:Yes culture, or even stewardship.

I
This thread has me rethinking even going on a collecting trip.  The trophy trees are already mounted on the hillside.  Why do I need to put them in a pot?  I can see such trees being about as rare as rhinos in a few decades.


I guess it's alright to come from this point of view but if you stop and think about what you are saying there is a serious flaw.  I am thinking you have not been in the Mountains much or you would have answered your own question.  These trees you refer to as the trophy trees live in places, not along the side of the road but high up on extreme locations accessible to only a few people who are in good physical condition and capable of clamoring around on cliff faces carrying equipment and tools for tree harvesting.  The point is; these trees would only be seen by a select few, probably a hand full by count.  

I am well into my sixties and though I can still drive to many of these extreme locations if I have a mind to, which I have done now for several years, I am now unable to climb around on the side of a mountain above 6,000',  most of the really good stuff grows at elevations in excess of 8,000'.  If you are able to go and see these trees in person I can tell you what you need to do.  Enjoy looking at the tree and don't dig it up.  Remember this; if it were not for those who in the past had taken the time and risk to harvest some of these wonders of nature and given us the art of bonsai you probably would not interested in this issue at all.

Sorry that i am late for the discussion, but it worth to bring back every once awhile.

How many of us ever see Shamu in the wild? Should we keep seaching and capturing the biggest and most beautiful Shamu to inspire more people? Is there any serious flaw with my thinking??? Thanks.
van

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  M. Frary on Tue May 12, 2015 8:27 pm

There are a lot more trees than there are killer whales. If I see a tree I like and can get permission it's mine. I didn't get quite as many trees dug this year as I thought. I only collected 129. A few were Shamus too. No sense digging up a tree if it's not excellent material.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Van on Tue May 12, 2015 9:38 pm

[quote="M. Frary"]   There are a lot more trees than there are killer whales. If I see a tree I like and can get permission it's mine. I didn't get quite as many trees dug this year as I thought. I only collected 129. A few were Shamus too. No sense digging up a tree if it's not excellent material.[/quote

Thanks for sharing your opinions, it further validates why this post was created in the first place.

Van

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  M. Frary on Wed May 13, 2015 3:31 am

Van wrote:
M. Frary wrote:   There are a lot more trees than there are killer whales. If I see a tree I like and can get permission it's mine. I didn't get quite as many trees dug this year as I thought. I only collected 129. A few were Shamus too. No sense digging up a tree if it's not excellent material.[/quote

Thanks for sharing your opinions, it further validates why this post was created in the first place.

Van
Like you said. You're late to the party. Did you even read the whole thing. Because if you did you would have read that a lot of the trees I collect are destined to become mulch. I do go out of my way way to get really nice trees whenever possible. But the really nice ones are hard to find.
50 of those trees I'm giving to a bonsai club. 50 will eventually be for sale. The rest will stay with me. My own little pod of Orcas.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Dave Leppo on Wed May 13, 2015 11:33 am

I must admit I haven't read EVERY post herein. But it occurs to me that the obverse may happen; we may save trees that are extinct. the American chestnut (Castanea dentata) is not actually extinct, but due to the blight cannot grow the huge trunks it once did. It survives from old roots, growing a new trunk every few years that eventually succumbs to the blight, which is a fungus that attacks the bark, not the roots. There are supposedly hybrids coming that are resistant to the blight.

There are many of these blight-stricken trees in my woodland neighborhood. I consider collecting one or more for bonsai and fighting the blight with standard antifungal treatments. In nature the leaves are a bit bigger than Beech (Fagus grandifolia), but like the beech, will likely reduce somewhat. Here is a chance to restore the grandeur of the American chestnut to its former glory, in a potted scale model.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed May 13, 2015 12:30 pm

Dave Leppo wrote:Here is a chance to restore the grandeur of the American chestnut to its former glory, in a potted scale model.
right on man !

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Van on Wed May 13, 2015 11:04 pm

beer city snake wrote:is there a difference, or even an allowance for distinction, between sentient and non-sentient beings in this discussion ?

i have seen killer whales in the wild and i would rather not see one stuck in a goldfish bowl...

sentience (sat + ta in Pali, or sat + tva in Sanskrit) is a metaphysical quality of all things that requires respect and care, sentience is the ability to suffer, and thus is held to confer certain rights.

If you think trees are non-sentient and don't have ability to suffer, try not to water your bonsai for a week and see what happen.

Capture centuries old tree and stick it in a pot is the same as putting an orcas in a fish bolw. May be you are in state of denial because your club cut down hundreds of trees a year, most are destined to be mulch or sold off. Your club member, M Frary, calls some of his hard to find "trophy" trees orcas, why you have to deny it? You are all over places on this post.


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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Van on Thu May 14, 2015 1:23 am

Sorry David,
I don't mean to hijack your post, if anything you feel out of line please let me know, I will respectfully obligated so. Thanks.

van

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  M. Frary on Thu May 14, 2015 3:19 am

Van wrote:Hey Kelvin,


I didn't get quite as many trees dug this year as I thought. I only collected 129. A few were Shamus too. No sense digging up a tree if it's not excellent material.

I do go out of my way way to get really nice trees whenever possible. But the really nice ones are hard to find. 50 of those trees I'm giving to a bonsai club. 50 will eventually be for sale. The rest will stay with me. My own little pod of Orcas.
                                                     *****************************************************

This is what Mike wrote, please read it, just right above your post.  I don't know who he is or what he is doing for a living and why do i have to dig into his life?

You threw the sentinent/non-sentinent at me, i just looked it up for exact intended meaning, did not make up that. Google up sentinent beings and see.

for club/non-club thing, you threw me the link: http://arborartscollective.blogspot.com/  i looked it up and there are: Kevin Stoeveken, Mike Frary and some other names in there.

You can call me d1ck, b1tch, or whatever name warrant in you mind.  You know i stand firm on my position, as before, we can not destroy the nature beauty that entitled to us but future generations also entitled to.  Thanks.

van

Easy does it bud. If you think this way you really don't want to know what I do for a living. Just think of me as a trees and a tree huggers worst nightmare.
Did you get a chance to see my trees? I will put more on there this coming weekend. I have a nice juniper progression I'm putting together.
There is no reason to be so harsh. If you practice bonsai for any length of time you too will want nice trees. Some of us have the opportunity to collect as many as we want. The trees I give away and sell are by no means masterpieces by any stretch of the imagination. Mainly young trees someone can get that they can't go out and get themselves or buy in a nursery.
If you don't like me or what I do that is cool too. I don't come here to argue. This forum isn't for that. And I respect the moderators here too much to muddy up their free exchange of good information. They do a good job keeping it clean here.
If you want to go trolling go to the bonsai nut forum. Be glad to have you over there. They eat guys like you for breakfast. Serious.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  my nellie on Sun May 17, 2015 11:06 pm

... ...These are usually a couple hundred year old white pines... ...I have the opportunity to collect as many trees as my cold, black little heart desires... ...So why not dig up hundreds... ...If I see a tree I like and can get permission it's mine. I didn't get quite as many trees dug this year as I thought. I only collected 129. A few were Shamus too... ...
Unbelievable! This is really frightening! Heartbreaking too!

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon May 18, 2015 1:00 pm



before judgement is passed... Rolling Eyes

mike clears power lines (as is done in every state, province and country)...

the trees mike collects would be turned into mulch... and if mike and his crew, like thousands of others around the globe, don't do it, someone else will and again they will be simply turned into mulch.

but now we are (hopefully) moving toward more ecological solutions because modern easement documents do not allow species that reach a certain height to be planted within power line easement areas.

archaic easement documents (written a hundred years ago) did not have such restrictions and those species are now encroaching on the power grid and also endangering the safety of persons and property.

and please don't say "well, we are the ones who encroached upon the trees in the first place"...

nobody alive today wrote those documents and the work needs to be done...
at least mike "rescues" some of them...

with the way the easement documents are written today, this should not even be a topic of discussion a hundred years from now.

even though mike made references to what he does in other posts, here it is in black and white, all in one easy to understand post.

now, can we please move on... ?

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon May 18, 2015 2:47 pm

Kevin,

just in case you didn't know. My Nellie is a very loving and kind lady. I think she was a bit over whelmed by the age, possible deaths and the effect on life.

Mike has always impressed me as being responsible, even over on Bnut, where they eat nutters for breakfast Laughing Wink
Pax a tutti.
Khai......

* I doubt if anything could be dwarfed and next to our powerlines or any pole. The rampantt weeds would probably have long time ago killed it.
Life without winter, to sterilise.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon May 18, 2015 3:00 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: just in case you didn't know. My Nellie is a very loving and kind lady. I think she was a bit over whelmed by the age, possible deaths and the effect on life.

i believe that to be true...

nellie - i was not aiming anything directly at you and you always have seemed very gracious...
i was just coming to the defense of someone who was being maligned and misrepresented, both intentionally/obstinately and otherwise.

(nellie - i couldnt see where you pulled that exact quote from... it looked like an amalgamation with additions confused scratch )


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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon May 18, 2015 3:08 pm

Kevin,

it's My Nellie, Laughing Nellie, is my Grand Mother [ G.M ] from Africa, see her on face book.
My Nellie is also Greek and English is not a first tongue, and on the Art Forums, where folk are from all over, imagine the conversations Laughing

Espcially, if de mahn taking tu yuh isah Treenedadianh.
Stay Well mi amici.
Buona Fortuna.
Khai..... [ Khaimraj, mind if I call you Kim - from an old art forum, and an old dear friend. Laughing ]

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

Post  M. Frary on Tue May 19, 2015 3:20 am

I'm awfully sorry if my posts about what I do and how many trees I collect in a year are a cause for concern. What a lot of people don't realize is that where I live trees are a business. My whole life I've made my living from trees. I ran my furs chain saw at age 11. I've also been on the other side. Replanting trees for the DNR. And worked at a nursery for more than 3 years. My whole life and lively hood and one of my hobbies is ,has been and always be working with trees. It's who I am.
It is a shame that the big ones that are old and huge have to come down, but who better to do it than someone who understands and has a connection to trees.
Thank you Kevin for sticking up for me. Most people don't quite get why I do what I do. Look at it this way. If that 200 year old 120 White pine falls on the right set of lines it very well could put out the power to millions of people. No power no lights no water no sewer no computers. And the big one. No way to communicate to defend our nation.

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Re: Bonsai Citizenship

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