chinese elm air layering advice needed

View previous topic View next topic Go down

chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:04 pm

i am making my first attempts at air layering and could use some advice...

i am working with good healthy chinese elm stock that was rescued from a hedgerow december of 2012





i started 3 air layers on three separate trunk/branches in late may of this spring
(collar stripped to the sap wood, packed in sphagnum moss and wrapped in parafilm)

this is how they look currently:







(one of them actually pushed through the parafilm - now rewrapped)

so i guess my question is, should i let more roots develop before severing ?
any danger in letting it be for too long ?
roughly how long would a good time (or a minimum time) be for them to be potted before winter comes ?
any severing, potting, after-care tips would also be appreciated !

thanks !!!

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  GerhardGerber on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:05 pm

Hi

Can't really say, but there seems to be a lot of roots, and Chinese Elm are tough.

Just a suggestion - seems like you'll be doing some more air layers on that tree, try the split-pot method next time.
Bit more maintenance in that you have to water it, but you het nice flat & radial roots if you use a shallow, flat'ish pot.

Cheers
Gerhard

GerhardGerber
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:54 pm

yeah... my plan is to air layer the hell out of it, working my way down the trunks(s) over the course of a couplafew years, and then trunk-chop it and then develop that...

one of the guys in our collective is currently trying that split pot method right now on a dawn redwood, but he doesnt like that you cant see the roots forming so he's unsure when to pull the contraption off...

depending on his results, i might give it a try...

thanks for the reply, gerhard !

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  0soyoung on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:58 pm

GerhardGerber wrote:... try the split-pot method next time.
Bit more maintenance in that you have to water it, but you het nice flat & radial roots if you use a shallow, flat'ish pot.

I agree - this should be the preferred method with vertical stems. With sphagnum, one gets fragile fleshy roots that harden into normal roots after a season or so of growing in a bonsai medium. This happens simultaneously in the split pot method (with bonsai medium) and, in effect, saves an entire season to get to the same point of root development. This also works better with layers that take longer than one season.
I usually put long screws into the stem to support the pot (from below). In this configuration one usually can also wrap the works inside polyethylene film to eliminate the need to water for all intents and purposes.

0soyoung
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:30 pm

thanks for the addnl info O (so young)  Wink 

i wonder if that is a bit different than what my friend is trying...  scratch 
his is a snap together plastic thing with adjustable holes for the branch...


_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  0soyoung on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:24 am

beer city snake wrote:... i wonder if that is a bit different than what my friend is trying...  scratch 
his is a snap together plastic thing with adjustable holes for the branch ...

Somewhat.

Just slice one side of an ordinary plastic pot and continue to the center of the bottom where a hole is cut to accomodate the stem. I poke a pair or two of holes down the side, lace a piece of wire thru each pair and twist to reclose the side cut after it is on the tree. I use a little bit of sphagnum to 'seal' the bottom of the pot so that the medium doesn't run out when it is subsequently dumped in.

0soyoung
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:35 am

ok, you have me partway there...

so, i still cut the same band around the branch, then secure the pot, then hit the bottom with sphagnum, and then... ?
fill with regular bonsai substrate and seal it up with some cello-wrap ?

(sorry, but i tried googling split pot air layer and didnt find anything very specific w/o spending alot of time looking  cyclops )

thanx 2X

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  0soyoung on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:19 am

beer city snake wrote:ok, you have me partway there...

so, i still cut the same band around the branch, then secure the pot, then hit the bottom with sphagnum, and then... ?
fill with regular bonsai substrate and seal it up with some cello-wrap ?

Yes, you girdle the stem and etc, just like you did for these layers.


  • Put two or three screws into the stem below the girdle to support the pot.
  • Cut the pot as I previously described, slip it around the stem, let it sit on the screws, and tie it back together with a wire lace or two.
  • Dampen some sphagnum and put it in the pot's drain holes and around the stem at the pot bottom.
  • Pour in you favorite dampened bonsai medium.

    If you are willing to water, you are done and will just need to water it every day or so, else

  • Wrap the whole works up inside polyethylene film


The downside to this method is that it is somewhat trying to see how things are doing. The nicest arrangement is if the screws can be removed and the pot slid down the stem temporarily to expose the girdle (then you just slide it back into position and replace the screws), but this isn't always possible. When it is not, gently poking around the medium is about the only thing that can be done - the medium will be very loose until populated with roots.

0soyoung
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:28 pm

thanks oSo !

as these roots are soft and fleshy i'd be curious to hear what others use for severing so as not to damage the roots...
too thick for a branch cutter and a reciprocal saw seems a bit too rough and "vibrate-ey"...

maybe a rotary tool w/ a cut off wheel... ?

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  MikeG on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:00 pm

I had a similar Zelkova that I took many layers from. I started with what you did but switched to the pot method by the last couple layers. Instead of a pot I used large, clear juice containers cut to size so I could see what was going on inside.

Mike

MikeG
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  Stan Kengai on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:07 pm

beer city snake wrote:yeah... my plan is to air layer the hell out of it, working my way down the trunks(s) over the course of a couplafew years, and then trunk-chop it and then develop that...

Looks like you also need to make some root cuttings, if those roots in the first and second pictures are from you elm. It's hard to recreate that kind of movement with wire. Looks like you have some pretty good stock material. Good luck with it. As far as the layers go, I'd remove them when the temperatures start to cool (here around Sept. 1), but I know nothing of your growing season.

Stan Kengai
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:39 pm

thanks mike... i was thinking the same thing re: clear containers (but maybe wrapped in something dark for sun protection, but easily removable to check progress).

stan - sorry but those aint roots !
just some cuttings off a contorted filbert (aka cheater tree  Razz )

so how do you guys sever ?

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  GerhardGerber on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:10 pm

beer city snake wrote:yeah... my plan is to air layer the hell out of it, working my way down the trunks(s) over the course of a couplafew years, and then trunk-chop it and then develop that...

one of the guys in our collective is currently trying that split pot method right now on a dawn redwood, but he doesnt like that you cant see the roots forming so he's unsure when to pull the contraption off...

depending on his results, i might give it a try...

thanks for the reply, gerhard !

Hi

I just use sand, so I poke around with a chopstick few weeks in to check root growth, or just wash some sand out with a hose pipe and replace the sand post-inspection.
This method gives you very nice radial roots immediately.

GerhardGerber
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:29 pm

right on GG... thanks !
i am fully down with trying the split pot method next spring !

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  GerhardGerber on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:05 pm

Hi

Just had another thought....

In case you were wondering, Zelkova is not quite as tough as Chinese Elm, but I successfully did 3 levels of air layers on a zelkova......point being, you don't have to take years with the Elm.
As long as you have some growth on a section you can layer it.
I've joked that I preach the gospel according to air layering, and I admit to being a convert.
I've decided to spread the joy, and to some extent get the hobby to pay for itself (by popular demand sort of situation), so I've got 2 Chinese Elms, 3 Zelkova serata, 2 trident maples and 1 zelkova carpinifolia that will be air layered and (mostly) sold.
Form my experience the past 3 seasons I won't be shy, top to bottom layers as long as there's some growth, and on the Elms I know the first layers will induce back budding....as that happens new layers will be added.
BTW....since it's just (pool filter) sand I feed the split-pot layers.

Here's a pic of the 2nd layer off my 1st Chinese Elm......by this time I was convinced, even more convinced a few years later  Cool 


GerhardGerber
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  M. Frary on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:10 pm

beer city snake wrote:thanks mike... i was thinking the same thing re: clear containers (but maybe wrapped in something dark for sun protection, but easily removable to check progress).

stan - sorry but those aint roots !
just some cuttings off a contorted filbert (aka cheater tree  Razz )

so how do you guys sever ?

I'm going out on a limb here. Ha! And say a saw perhaps? Ha again! Sorry.

M. Frary
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  beer city snake on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:30 pm

wow GG that looks nice... maybe i wont be quite so conservative next year, but being my first try i thought 3 at once was pushing it...

and M - where the hell is the damn rim-shot emoticon when you need one  cheers 

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

By the way, the name is Kevin
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

beer city snake
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  MikeG on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:04 pm

I don't have any special tools or advice on separating. I just use a small saw or an old pair of concave cutters. Ive used the cutters on thick stuff, cutting a series of v notches out like a damn beaver. lol. Not the best, but it made a helluva lot less vibrating then the saw.

Mike

MikeG
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: chinese elm air layering advice needed

Post  Sponsored content Today at 11:35 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum