the names of the pines

marcus watts Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:48 am

the 3 main pines have very simple names - black, red, white................

why is each so named ?

regards Marcus

Guest Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:09 am

Hi Marcus

I have heard japanese people say, it is when you stay in the front and look into a forrest of one of the types of pines, will one look Black, the other White or red...it is the trunks and needles together that give this impression.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Kind regards Yvonne

**JimLewis** Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:59 pm

Dunno how you can say three "main" types. There are many, many more pines than those three -- more than 90 species in all. Often, the naming of three -- either Latin or common -- bears little or no relation to any characteristic of the tree.

Guest Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:54 pm

I believe we are talking about the most used japanese pines.

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:54 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Marcus

I have heard japanese people say, it is when you stay in the front and look into a forrest of one of the types of pines, will one look Black, the other White or red...it is the trunks and needles together that give this impression.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Kind regards Yvonne

Have to correct my self, as I now remember more clear Smile

...it was only the black and white forrests that gave the names...the red, is due to the red timber, in at least the roots...this I have ben told by 2 japanese people.

Kind regards yvonne

**JimLewis** Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:57 pm

the most used

By whom? Europe? Japan? North America? Elsewhere?

Guest Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:06 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:I believe we are talking about the most used japanese pines.

Kind regards Yvonne

0soyoung Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:12 pm

White pine needles have one or more white lines on them.

Flake off the top layers of the bark: red pine bark will be red(-ish); black pine's dark grey(-ish).

But, as Mr. Lewis said, there are a lot more pines that these 'big three'.

marcus watts Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:27 pm

hi oh so - i think your answer is just the common urban myth answer - 'flaked off greyish bark' does not in any way evolve into black pine,
in fact having to flake off any bark to arrive at a trees name is equally unlikely, there is more chance the red pine is named so because of its bud colour maybe ? and yet the white pine has a reddish or sometimes grey underbark when mature too

Jim - i knew that one grumpy individual would pipe up that there are more pines than those 3, try adding something useful to the answer as well maybe that attempts to add a potential answer to my question - if you are able - those are the 3 main true bonsai subjects used across the bonsai world - regional species crop up in isolated locations to go alongside these 3 - and yes I class the UK and the USA as regional and isolated in world wide bonsai terms - your native pines and junipers are basicaslly used in isolation from the rest of the world, the European trees the same......BUT - in addition to localised pines we all have access too and use these three, and these are the three i asked the question about....i dont give a monkies about ponerosa, limber, lumber mugo or countless other names or i'd have listed them all and asked about them all

Yvonne, thankyou, this is the type of reason I could see the trees being so named.......I have all three here, all very old mature trees, all side by side - the whites do have the stripe on each needle but it in not visible when the tree is viewed normally - but when viewing a forest from afar with branches moving in the wind the stripe may give a white appearance to the mass....... The red pine has very red closed buds and it becomes a chestnut/red sheath covering as the candle extends - I've not cut deeply into the wood and roots to see the heart wood colour yet but there is red underbark, red buds, maybe red wood so this is the easiest one to best guess....The black pine though has grey bark, grey buds and sheath covering - they only look black in the rain really.

interesting - not such an obvious answer to cover all the three main bonsai pines it seems Laughing

hope we get a few more potentially meaningful answers

regards

0soyoung Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:35 am

marcus watts wrote:hi oh so - i think your answer is just the common urban myth answer - 'flaked off greyish bark' does not in any way evolve into black pine,
in fact having to flake off any bark to arrive at a trees name is equally unlikely, there is more chance the red pine is named so because of its bud colour maybe ? and yet the white pine has a reddish or sometimes grey underbark when mature too

Let me try again to explain.

I read your "3 pines" thing in the context of having three different Japanes pines (you are a bonsai guy to the best of my knowledge and not a horticulturalist or forester, so it seemed a safe assumption). Nevertheless, I claim that common names for pines follow much the same logic, with there also being exceptions which don't fit into the rbw scheme (P. bungeana, for example).

It is easy to distinguish by the logic 'tree'

does it have a white stripe on the needle?
if yes, it is a white pine
flake off some bark - does the underbark have a red(-ish) color?
if yes, it is a red pine
(get here if all above is no) it is a black pine (I say the underbark is grey)

These are common factors in the common names of pines. There are other factors for the dendrology, such as the needle color of red pine (P. densiflora) is a brighter green than black pine (P. thunbergii), but that does little or nothing to explain why they are called red or black.

Apparently you meant to ask why do they (the Japanese) call them white, red, and black. In particular, why black? I've long been puzzled why black pines are called black. They don't look particularly black to me (especially compared to the Black Hills of South Dakota, USA). I look forward to seeing how the answer evolves.

BTW, it is naught so young, for whatever difference that might make.

**JimLewis** Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:31 pm

Well then, if it really matters, aside from the number of needles in a bundle, perhaps you can find the info you need here: http://www.wood-database.com/?s=pine

Lovingly,

Grumpy

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:55 pm

marcus watts wrote:the 3 main pines have very simple names - black, red, white................

why is each so named ?

regards Marcus

funny how such a simple question can be discussed to death...

but i guess i will add to it with another question (from a non-pine guy):

WE say black, white, red in ENGLISH...
is it possible that these 3 words carry many more meanings in japanese
than we can possibly convey with a (perhaps) clumsy translation ?

i only mention this as i was thinking of how many different words and meanings the eskimos have for "snow" and "white"...

possibly a pointless point,
but i wanted to throw it out there...

Dave Murphy Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:52 pm

marcus watts wrote:the 3 main pines have very simple names - black, red, white................

why is each so named ?

regards Marcus

I suspect these are common names that aren't direct translations from the Japanese language. I suspect a Japanese Red Pine is named for the reddish orange color of the bark on young tree, as well as the color of the buds. I suspect the Japanese Black Pine is named for it's blackish grey bark at maturity. I suspect the Japanese White Pine is so named based on it's taxonomic classification.

William Feldman Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:20 pm

Dave Murphy wrote:I suspect these are common names that aren't direct translations from the Japanese language.

Black pine and red pine are direct translations of the common Japanese names "Kuromatsu" and "Akamatsu". The common name of the Japanese white pine is "Goyomatsu", which I think refers to the five needles in each bundle.

AlainK Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:16 pm

I usually use the scientific name, especially on foreign-speaking forums, even if I sometimes find it shorter in the body of the message to use the English vernacular name.

For instance "Scots pine" is shorter to type than "Pinus sylvestris", in French "Pin sylvestre" = "forest pine", compared to "Pin maritime" = "Pinus pinaster", because the latter is found in coastal areas. Local names for plants can be misleading.

...Not to mention the posts about "My new cedar", since in the US, it can apparently refer to a dozen totally different taxons, or "My new Zelkova 'Nire" Laughing

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I'm sure that some here, like our precious Iris Cohen, understand what I mean Wink

What about "Mountain pine", as if there was only one species of pines that grows in the mountains, or "English oak", or even "Japanes maple" (or even "Jap" maple Shocked

) that can refer to several types of maples, some like Acer palmatum containing three sub-species and over a thousand cultivars with specific characteristics and requirements?

nekotoban Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:29 pm

I think your question has already been cleared...JBP(Pinus thunbergii) &JRP(Pinus densiflora), both named after its colour of trunk/bark in spite of vague colour definition. As William said we literally call JBP "Kuro matsu/Black pine" and JRP "Aka matsu/Red pine", but never say JWP(Pinus parviflora ) "Shiro matsu/White pine". JWP is "Goyomatsu"or just "Goyo".
I didn't know the reason why not Shiro matsu, so I have searched and found it. Name of White pine/Shiro matsu has already existed in Japan. Pinus bungeana, in English, Lacebark pine is it.

As an additional info, another name of JBP is refferd to as Omatsu/male pine, so as JRP is Mematsu/female pine. Both name are related for their hardness of trunk and whole appearances.

Vance Wood Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:33 pm

beer city snake wrote:
marcus watts wrote:the 3 main pines have very simple names - black, red, white................

why is each so named ?

regards Marcus

funny how such a simple question can be discussed to death...

but i guess i will add to it with another question (from a non-pine guy):

WE say black, white, red in ENGLISH...
is it possible that these 3 words carry many more meanings in japanese
than we can possibly convey with a (perhaps) clumsy translation ?

i only mention this as i was thinking of how many different words and meanings the eskimos have for "snow" and "white"...

possibly a pointless point,
but i wanted to throw it out there...

It is amusing to me how someone who already knows the answer to the question asked can jump on someone who offers an opinion. Why did you ask the question in the first place?

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:18 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
beer city snake wrote:
marcus watts wrote:the 3 main pines have very simple names - black, red, white................

why is each so named ?

regards Marcus

funny how such a simple question can be discussed to death...

but i guess i will add to it with another question (from a non-pine guy):

WE say black, white, red in ENGLISH...
is it possible that these 3 words carry many more meanings in japanese
than we can possibly convey with a (perhaps) clumsy translation ?

i only mention this as i was thinking of how many different words and meanings the eskimos have for "snow" and "white"...

possibly a pointless point,
but i wanted to throw it out there...

It is amusing to me how someone who already knows the answer to the question asked can jump on someone who offers an opinion. Why did you ask the question in the first place?

sorry vance, but i dont understand your quoted reply...

i did not "jump on" anybody...
and i certainly did not already know the answer to a question i didnt ask...

sign me,
confused scratch

kevin

**JimLewis** Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:50 pm

I think he was asking Marcus.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:08 pm

thats what i would've thunk if he hadn't quoted me...

Vance Wood Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:56 pm

beer city snake wrote:thats what i would've thunk if he hadn't quoted me...

If I offended anyone other than the one who deserved the offending remark I beg your pardon. From this point on I will have nothing to say on this thread. There is no reason in my mind such a simple question should create the opportunity for one person to kick another.

bonsaisr Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:27 pm

<<I know this is a bit off-topic, but I'm sure that some here, like our precious Iris Cohen, understand what I mean Wink>>

Everybody drags me into the act. lol!

At least now I know why Pinus parviflora is Goyomatsu. Many English-speaking traditionalists call it Japanese five-needle pine. Most of us around here call it Japanese white pine, because Pinus bungeana is very rare. As Alain points out, it doesn't matter what you call the common name, it is the botanical name through which we communicate.
Iris

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:32 am

Vance Wood wrote:If I offended anyone other than the one who deserved the offending remark I beg your pardon. From this point on I will have nothing to say on this thread. There is no reason in my mind such a simple question should create the opportunity for one person to kick another.

damm... so i can't even ask why you quoted me...

if it was a mistake, i would understand... but... confused

Vance Wood Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:21 am

JimLewis wrote:I think he was asking Marcus.

Yes I was and I wish I had not. I suppose I will never learn.

M. Frary Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:48 am

marcus watts wrote:hi oh so - i think your answer is just the common urban myth answer - 'flaked off greyish bark' does not in any way evolve into black pine,
in fact having to flake off any bark to arrive at a trees name is equally unlikely, there is more chance the red pine is named so because of its bud colour maybe ? and yet the white pine has a reddish or sometimes grey underbark when mature too

Jim - i knew that one grumpy individual would pipe up that there are more pines than those 3, try adding something useful to the answer as well maybe that attempts to add a potential answer to my question - if you are able - those are the 3 main true bonsai subjects used across the bonsai world - regional species crop up in isolated locations to go alongside these 3 - and yes I class the UK and the USA as regional and isolated in world wide bonsai terms - your native pines and junipers are basicaslly used in isolation from the rest of the world, the European trees the same......BUT - in addition to localised pines we all have access too and use these three, and these are the three i asked the question about....i dont give a monkies about ponerosa, limber, lumber mugo or countless other names or i'd have listed them all and asked about them all

Yvonne, thankyou, this is the type of reason I could see the trees being so named.......I have all three here, all very old mature trees, all side by side - the whites do have the stripe on each needle but it in not visible when the tree is viewed normally - but when viewing a forest from afar with branches moving in the wind the stripe may give a white appearance to the mass....... The red pine has very red closed buds and it becomes a chestnut/red sheath covering as the candle extends - I've not cut deeply into the wood and roots to see the heart wood colour yet but there is red underbark, red buds, maybe red wood so this is the easiest one to best guess....The black pine though has grey bark, grey buds and sheath covering - they only look black in the rain really.

interesting - not such an obvious answer to cover all the three main bonsai pines it seems

hope we get a few more potentially meaningful answers

regards

Why are Japanese white pine called white when they look blue? Why are Japanese black pine called black when their bark is the same color as white pine? If Japanese trees are so widespread why do they cost so much? Living in isolation keeps me from getting these trees at good prices so it looks like I'll have to go on using trees like mugo or Bristlecone or scotch pine.

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