defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

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defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue May 13, 2014 6:59 pm

i have been perusing a great deal of this forum since joining it not long ago and wanted to throw out my (not so) humble opinion on some of the discussion that seems pervasive in this art form regarding how to define what we do in terms of ancient oriental ways of creating art with trees... (please keep in mind that i am a 3 year novice, but with some good work behind me, leading up to even more good work to come - i hope)

i came into this endeavor from an art background of various mediums, and i have always found that discussions over what something is or is not detract from the enjoyment of the piece, whether it be a painting, a sculpture, music, or tree/trees on/in pots/trays/rocks etc...

i dont think there is such a thing as an all-inclusive definition of any piece of art that does not in some way detract from the piece by the very act of defining it... (i.e "thats not bonsai, thats penjing !" while it could incorporate elements of both)

of course there are objects that are very definitive; apples, the moon, a blade of grass, but when art begins to blur the lines between recognized "styles" or "disciplines", it should be allowed to and appreciated for exactly that...

which is why i coined the term "Arbor Arts" to encompass what i/we do with trees and the mediums on/in which we choose to create our art.

after all, i am a north american of european, not oriental, descent and while i am grateful to those who came before us for their inspiring works of art, i believe we need to find our own way in this truly remarkable art form...
 



alrighty then...
someone is now welcome to give this soap-box a good swift kick and get me outta here... Arrow 

kevin

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  fiona on Tue May 13, 2014 9:49 pm





 Wink 

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed May 14, 2014 12:00 am

couldnt have said it better myself, fiona !!! cheers 

hope all is well on your side of the pond.

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kitdiot on Wed May 14, 2014 5:46 am

well put. sometimes when I look at trees from other/professional people I feel like such a newbie and that maybe im not picking the right starter material, or im not picking the right style for the tree, or im just not doing it right. but then I think- "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". I want MY trees to look how I want. I'm mainly looking for how to keep my tree alive and how to miniaturize a tree. I think as long as my tree is alive and fairly happy- im happy. I don't need lessons, lectures, or leisurely opinions. On a side note I don't really get the concept of what a 'good' display is and what a 'not so good' display is. accent plants, scrolls, the 'right' pot... eh. GO TREES!

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  JimLewis on Wed May 14, 2014 1:21 pm

Oh, fer Pete's sake!


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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kevin stoeveken on Wed May 14, 2014 5:45 pm

hey jim !
 Laughing  Laughing  Laughing 

kitdiot wrote:well put. sometimes when I look at trees from other/professional people I feel like such a newbie and that maybe im not picking the right starter material, or im not picking the right style for the tree, or im just not doing it right. but then I think- "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". I want MY trees to look how I want. I'm mainly looking for how to keep my tree alive and how to miniaturize a tree. I think as long as my tree is alive and fairly happy- im happy. I don't need lessons, lectures, or leisurely opinions. On a side note I don't really get the concept of what a 'good' display is and what a 'not so good' display is. accent plants, scrolls, the 'right' pot... eh. GO TREES!

actually i believe that knowledge about what we are doing is important which is why after 3 years in i am now taking bonsai novice classes and plan to continue with intermediate and advanced classes, along with working with visiting artists when i can (like Arthur Joura on june 1st !!!)

but if you want to be the only "beholder" eye-balling the beauty, then self satisfaction is all you need !!!
(either way that should be the second consideration, the first of course being the well-being of the tree)

i think it was ghandi who said: live like you will die tomorrow, but learn like you will live forever.

btw - what part of wisco are you from ?

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Wed May 14, 2014 7:26 pm

fiona wrote:  Wink 

Ahahhaahahahhahhaah I just love Fiona!!!!

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Tsetsetse..

Post  dorothy7774 on Thu May 15, 2014 8:23 pm

Bonsai related definitions ( style, size, display etc.) have nothing to do with the enjoyment of the art. They have to do with standards that are based on organizational values ( exhibit - sections ) or educational properties ( traditional styles, literature). It's like furniture and furnishings in a house. Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.  Very Happy 

Sure you can enjoy whatever you want, when you want it and where you want it. Once you place your object in a certain setting, it becomes art. I'd say that anything can be "art". It all depends how you present it. Now whether it is good art or not, that's another question.

Best,
Dorothy

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  JimLewis on Thu May 15, 2014 9:56 pm

Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.


That's simple: That is where the beer is.

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  Guest on Fri May 16, 2014 12:57 am

BEFOREfiona wrote:





 


AFTER




 Laughing

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  dorothy7774 on Fri May 16, 2014 2:48 am

JimLewis wrote:
Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.


That's simple:  That is where the beer is.  

Cheers!  cheers 

-Dorothy

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  dorothy7774 on Fri May 16, 2014 2:50 am

Hey June, Yokohama is still making tires..?  Laughing 

-Dorothy

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  Guest on Fri May 16, 2014 3:40 am

Dorothy,
this is a classic antique container, Not being produced anymore. Can't you see the patina mark? I'll have this pot put in a bidding of antique pots... place your bids. hehe
regards,
jun

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  fiona on Fri May 16, 2014 9:53 am

Nice one, Jun.

But it still reinforces my point precisely that whatever you do with it or whatever you call it or however many times you reinvent it, a wheel remains a wheel.  Wink 

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri May 16, 2014 2:04 pm

hey dorothy - were you "tsk-ing" me in your reply subject line ?  lol! 

nonetheless good reply and makes sense...
i have displayed in bonsai shows and in that context it is the setting that should be adhered to...

also when explaining to others what i do, the term "bonsai" is inevitable due to its universal usage...
of course that doesnt stop them from saying "thats not a bonsai" when looking at an elm or a maple as most folks associate pines/juniper with "bonsai" at which point the whole "tree in pot" spiel comes out... Rolling Eyes 

and fiona... i dig what you said about the wheel... so true
and jim weird how i never have to explain why i have a fridge in the studio   Wink 
lastly jun: from what i have seen of your work, you could jam a stick in a yam and somehow make it look good !

btw i was working on something very unusual last nite   affraid 
that i will be posting up maybe next week

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kitdiot on Fri May 16, 2014 6:42 pm

im from near eau Claire.

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sat May 17, 2014 2:35 pm

cool... beautiful up that a-away
seems like a good area for tree collecting too

whoops -  Embarassed 
sorry - i meant yamadori  Wink 

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Re: defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

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