Second serious wiring- Black Pine

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Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:29 pm

From the same source as my White Pine this was acquired in 1988,(  www.ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t15317-white-pine-my-first-serious-wiring  ) this was  similarly neglected for most of the intervening years. I did however cut off a branch,some years ago where the first two branches grew opposite each other and were almost identical in shape, the previous owner having loved symmetry.He had many trees that looked like a figure with his arms out each side and raised at the elbow-'Stick'em up' it the only way I could describe them
Over the years it grew to a stage where it looked a bit like a hedgehog .photo 1
I then wired it as photo two the same time as working on the JWP
but after comments on my white pine wiring I also altered this again to photo 3






Should I have left well alone?

Michael Cooper
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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:39 pm

Progress picture update on the Black Pine, I think it is looking really promising now after it has taken me all these years to get down to it more seriously. Though I can see that one needs to have far more time to devote to it than I could have managed when I was working full time and with a young family etc

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  juniper07 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:51 pm

One thing I have learned with wiring pines is that if you are very gradual with bending, then it takes forever for the branches to set in position. At this stage I would wire the branches in these areas (marked in red). These are just the pad positions... blend them a little to make it look more natural.


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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  marcus watts on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:05 am

hello,

you seem to have slipped into the really bad habit of using the old front and angle just because the tree is potted that way. Seeing the tree with new eyes shows you've had to bend the bottom branch round from the inside to the outside - now it cuts across the front of the trunk and hides the best movement the tree has -

2nd branch is nearly as guilty - it pokes out from much the same place as branch one grows from, but it is curved down and across the trunk line as well. being thicker than the bottom branch below it makes it look more wrong - I'd be removing this branch right now, it has no valid place.

there is tons of foliage in the area above this to drop down into the spaces but the first job is to find a better front so you dont need to cross the trunk with the 1st branch - the lower branches look quite long and bare too - potentially the best tree hiding in the material doesnt use either of them....... Exclamation 

great species for the sw though, they love the humidity and mild weather - make sure to decandle in june too or they grow too coarse and too bulky otherwise, plus you get longer and longer single shoot branches with no ramification

cheers Marcus


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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:21 am

Thank you Marcus I had doubts about the branch crossing the trunk.I will give it further thought now after your comments .Not quite sure what you envisage ,take off second branch, move first branch?
Well aware of the danger of one view only ,just made enormous difference with my WP. had not got round to seeing the new angle in this one yet though. There are none so blind as those that cannot see.
Only taken me twenty plus years to make the last decisions. Look forward to Seeing you at your 'Slab' talk Taunton and Somerset Soc. in September.

Michael Cooper
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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  marcus watts on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:35 pm

look forward to meeting up at the rock and roll meeting too. I think the best place for this branch is at the back if you want to keep it so turn the tree until you get the branch to the back but still see the curve in the trunk. branch 2 can go and the rest can be wired and bought down.

my tree with both branches gone would be tilted to raise it up and a taller more natural tree styled from all the top branches - we'd keep the front much as it is, form a dropping branch to the left as we view it and make a few layers and an apex from all the other bits

cheers, see you in Sept

Marcus

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:18 pm

I am seriously pondering over your suggestions Marcus and am now rotating the tree out side the kitchen window so I see it time and again at different angles at different times of day.
I cannot believe that I have always looked at it one way, as an artist I have always instructed others to look at their work in a mirror from time to time, as a different view may well throw up errors they do not notice when obsessed with one initial composition or where concentration on detail has thwarted the plans for the overall picture, now I have gone and done just that!
I can see what you mean by the movement in the tree  being better but it is just so hard when one has had something for a long time to commit major limb surgery.
I must also use more round pots rather than rectangular to encourage rotating the tree more frequently to see it's best aspect






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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  marcus watts on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:26 pm

it is so funny how we are with our own trees - its why i actively take myself and my bonsai to workshops with other artists even though I spend a lot of spare time doing workshops and demos for other people and their trees ! - anyone who thinks they dont need to invest in training and furthering themselves has become very stuck in a rut. New eyes are priceless.........over the last few years i've worked on several trees with Peter Warren, had a few days with Ryan Neil and the same recently with Mark Noelanders - every moment has been priceless in helping me inch along the bonsai path

A and B are good - C shows the worst parts of the bottom 2 branches - A & B will get better with the left side of the pot tilted up - there is loads of crown making foliage and the tilt will give us a dropping branch and some convincing middle foliage

we put material trees outside the kitchen windows too so you catch subconscious glimpses of them - it is the best way to see the fluid lines

Regards Marcus

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:16 am

good points marcus...

in regards to A & B:


















is the right side of the pot levitating ???  affraid 

and in regards to # C:
yes, less attractive, but far safer looking





sorry... couldnt help myself  tongue Wink

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:01 pm

Bit the bullet and chopped off the second branch in order not to obscure the trunk so. Then tried to move first branch over to the right  and brought some of higher foliage down on the left. Still needs tidying up but I think it will be better in the long run


Changed the pot at the same time with little root disturbance as it was repotted last spring just look at all the mycelium,speaks well of that Tesco Cat littler mix.


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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:07 pm

Michael Cooper wrote:He had many trees that looked like a figure with his arms out each side and raised at the elbow-'Stick'em up' it the only way I could describe them

kinda reminds me of our logo for the Arbor Arts Collective Laughing
(but then again we didnt want a typical "banzai" tree logo... Wink )

anyways... michael, the new work you did has helped alot, but now you are back to the original viewing angle and i aint saying thats a bad thing, but i am curious how it looks from the other viewing angle.

cheers !

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Update june 15

Post  Michael Cooper on Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:38 pm

Having taken off that second branch I have now, with some help from a more experienced club member, tried to make further improvements as it is back budding quite well too.



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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:46 pm

much nicer over-all...

and i really like the rusticity of that stand !
(maybe not so much w/ that pot, but still... pirat )

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:19 pm

Cheers Kevin, most of my trees stand on a low wall with a shaped coping stone surface hence my rustic and even rusticier stands to stop them sliding off.

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:06 pm

good idea !

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  Michael Cooper on Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:46 pm

After all the advice I have had this year this is where we have got to now

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  LanceMac10 on Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:09 pm

Looks much improved, Michael!! cheers cheers Very Happy

Wire in the future, further refine the image?

Love rusticererness!!!! lol!

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:14 pm

went back and looked again at the initial post... yes indeed, quite an improvement so far !

LanceMac10 wrote: Love rusticererness!!!! lol!

actually, thats rusticosity Wink Razz

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

Post  dick benbow on Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:19 am

it was mentioned earlier, about the use of a round pot, so is your ultimate plan to replace the oval with a round one? How much nicer the tree looks when you got out of the square pot and into the oval. I think round pots make life a little easier as trees renew and develop to find the correct angle for display instead of being stuck
with a pot that dictates how the tree must face.

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Re: Second serious wiring- Black Pine

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