Juniper : Need some advice

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Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:25 pm

Hi,
I'd need some advice on this Juniper.

A quick history:
I recently got this junipers from a friend, it was previously left neglected in his garden for several years (3~5 years from his account)
I just did a basic re-potting and modified the tree's angle when I acquired it.

This weekend I exposed some old dead branches and treated it with lime sulphur
In the process I realized that the wood at the base was partially containing some deadwood and was all soggy.
When I pressed it slightly with my blade there were small amount of water that were drawn out, much like a spongy surface.
I did a quick check and saw that there were other spots along the trunk line that seems to be deadwood or areas that does not contain a live vein.

Currently I am trying to dry the deadwood at the base of the tree to try to:
1. Identify if there are other exposed areas or to see the extend of it
2. Treat it later on with lime sulphur and wood hardener.

I have placed the plant in a sheltered area, in semi-shade to try to make the wood at the base dry out before attempting anything else.

Any advise, suggestions, recommendations most welcomed.
I want to try to avoid any carving if possible. The trunk is already pretty thin as it is, but there's no other choice...








[^] I tried to place a higher resolution image, there's those two patches of wood on the main trunk to the right of the piece of coral that's holding the trunk in place. They seem to be only wood without any cambium/live vein.

Some details of the foliage:







Thanks

Xavier de Lapeyre
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:23 am

This tree is way too young to be doing anything significant with it. It appears to be incredibly wet and should be left to dry out before watering again. If, as you say, you can squeeze water out of the trunk I suspect the tree is not long for this world.

Vance Wood
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:37 am

Thanks Vance!
Honest and to the point Smile
I'm already trying to dry the wood.
There are some "aerial" roots that started to form on the bottom of the trunk, so for me the tree itself is trying hard to stay alive.
I'll try to nurture it back to health and more if possible, but I'll keep your "forecasting" in mind if ever it drops dead on me along the way!

Xavier de Lapeyre
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:04 pm

In case you are not, this tree needs to be outdoors in the sun a good part of the day, That will go a long way to strengthen it up.

Vance Wood
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:44 pm

Vance darling, Xavier is in Mauritius...Africa...tropics ...lots of rain there now. I suspect that is why the tree is so wet looking.
Xavier try to bend the part going uo vertically before you grow it , or make a funky literati. I know you like slim feminine elegant trees.

Neli
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:16 pm


Neli wrote:Vance darling, Xavier is in Mauritius...Africa...tropics ...lots of rain there now. I suspect that is why the tree is so wet looking.
Xavier try to bend the part going uo vertically before you grow it , or make a funky literati. I know you like slim feminine elegant trees.

I seem to have made a mistake of thinking there was, or is, a watering problem when Xavier mentioned that water seemed to be coming from the trunk like a squeezed sponge (my words his sentiment).  What I meant to point out was that the tree needed some direct sun light and to dry out.  I do not change my assessment on that issue.   If the tree is Juniperus Chinensses it is being kept too wet and will rot if not cared for properly.  If you look at the tree as photographed you can clearly see it is in serious need of sun.

If this tree is to have any hopes to become a bonsai any time in the next ten years it will have to be induced to thicken up and that can only be done with lots of sun shine fertilizer and good drainage. I am not so worried about temperature as I am about rain fall. However I understand that they do quite well in Hawaii.

Vance Wood
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:21 pm

Vance, I agree...junipers..pines dont like to be overwatered. I had to cover my trees with clear plastic to avoid the constant rain. Xavier I am sure keeps it outside...but not sure if on full sun. I see what you mean about the scales being long and week looking.
Xavier;s trees are almost all like this one...he likes them like this and has been keeping bonsai for some years by now, and I know he knows all the basics and more.
I like them fat and short...He he he! He likes them tall and slim...

Neli
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:23 pm

Neli wrote:Vance, I agree...junipers..pines dont like to be overwatered. I had to cover my trees with clear plastic to avoid the constant rain. Xavier I am sure keeps it outside...but not sure if on full sun. I see what you mean about the scales being long and week looking.
Xavier;s trees are almost all like this one...he likes them like this and has been keeping bonsai for some years by now, and I know he knows all the basics and more.
I like them fat and short...He he he! He likes them tall and slim...

Not meaning to be insulting to anyone but maybe he likes them that way because he does not know how to get them to do anything else. So,--- he has resigned himself to accepting that his trees are going to look like that no matter what.

Vance Wood
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:00 am

Thanks Smile

Yes the tree is outside in a sheltered area.
It should get like 3~4 hours of direct sunlight but without getting hit by the daily rains.
The rest of the day it should still get some light but no direct hits.

The tree was not initially mine.
I don't own a lot of junipers (only one since I started bonsai) and lately a friend has placed four new trees in my care.
They were not in good shape and I am trying to bring them up to a decent level and learn about their growing habits at the same time.
There's another juniper from the same "batch" that I started to work on here : http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t14994-juniper-quick-intervention

Like Neli said, I've got some sound basic theory, but its really the first time I am really working with this species so to speak.
I'm working more by instinct and horticultural good sense right now.

No insult made Vance, plain truth, hurts but true nonetheless Smile
I'm not planning on styling the tree yet.
I want it back in good health and like you said I've got no clue on how to handle the foliage for now.
Should I pinch it now? It seems to be in its growing state, the tips seems to be growing.
Should I leave it alone so that it can bulk up more easily?
How should I proceed to encourage those aerial roots to grow more?
Notice that I did not remove ANY branches. I've kept them all as I got them. I've not even decided on a style for it, except that the tree's shape just screams "literati style you thick-head" in my mind, but I'm open to suggestions.
Implementation will of course depend on my skills (or lack of).

With a privet, ficus, cuphea or other species I've been working on for the last 3~4 years I've learned how they react/behave.
This one is totally new to me, but I do realize that I can't leave the wood in that state it was previously in.
Hence this post Smile

Neli I do have one or two thick trunk bonsai Razz
Only one or two though  Embarassed I've try to look up some tree to prove you wrong, but ended up finding more and more thin trunks Laughing 
Seems like you know my collection by heart now Smile

Most of the top trunk is dry now, only the base of the tree is left.
I've been bringing it inside during the night and placing pieces of tissues to try to take out more water.



Xavier de Lapeyre
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:45 am

Why not get a piece of plastic and gather it around the trunk and tie it around the trunk...then spread it over the pot. You can just lift the plastic and check and water it.
Then put it in full sun.
I dont think this is a variety with very compact foliage...like itoigawa, so you need lots of sun to tighten the foliage.
You need to decide on a style and go from there...If you are going for literati, shape the trunk now...but just let it grow for now...You might like to wire the primary branches into shape gently, but dont remove anything now , let it grow, and make sure all shoots get enough light...
Now winter is coming in your land....so it will be just fine on full sun. In the heat of the summer, You can use some shade cloth directly above that will shade it only at mid day.
Let it grow for a year and then we look at it again.
Dont remove branches you dont need.

Neli
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:57 am

On a second thought can it be that the base is totally otten and there is no live vein connecting it to the roots and that is why is sending aerial roots.
It might be the tree is trying to ground layer it self...check and if that is the case, add a ring above the soil level and put in some inorganic bonsai soil.

Neli
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Vance Wood on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:25 pm

Xavier de Lapeyre wrote:Thanks Smile

Yes the tree is outside in a sheltered area.
It should get like 3~4 hours of direct sunlight but without getting hit by the daily rains.
The rest of the day it should still get some light but no direct hits.

The tree was not initially mine.
I don't own a lot of junipers (only one since I started bonsai) and lately a friend has placed four new trees in my care.
They were not in good shape and I am trying to bring them up to a decent level and learn about their growing habits at the same time.
There's another juniper from the same "batch" that I started to work on here : http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t14994-juniper-quick-intervention

Like Neli said, I've got some sound basic theory, but its really the first time I am really working with this species so to speak.
I'm working more by instinct and horticultural good sense right now.

No insult made Vance, plain truth, hurts but true nonetheless Smile
I'm not planning on styling the tree yet.
I want it back in good health and like you said I've got no clue on how to handle the foliage for now.
Should I pinch it now? It seems to be in its growing state, the tips seems to be growing.
Should I leave it alone so that it can bulk up more easily?
How should I proceed to encourage those aerial roots to grow more?
Notice that I did not remove ANY branches. I've kept them all as I got them. I've not even decided on a style for it, except that the tree's shape just screams "literati style you thick-head" in my mind, but I'm open to suggestions.
Implementation will of course depend on my skills (or lack of).

With a privet, ficus, cuphea or other species I've been working on for the last 3~4 years I've learned how they react/behave.
This one is totally new to me, but I do realize that I can't leave the wood in that state it was previously in.
Hence this post Smile

Neli I do have one or two thick trunk bonsai Razz
Only one or two though  Embarassed I've try to look up some tree to prove you wrong, but ended up finding more and more thin trunks Laughing 
Seems like you know my collection by heart now Smile

Most of the top trunk is dry now, only the base of the tree is left.
I've been bringing it inside during the night and placing pieces of tissues to try to take out more water.



Junipers need a lot more than three or four hours of sun light a day.  I understand the issue with rain fall, you kind  of find yourself in a predicament.  You should not be bringing the tree indoors instead try to find a place out doors that is out of the rain and place a wedge under one edge of the pot. This will make the tree and pot sit at an angle and aid in draining out the excess water.

Vance Wood
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:02 pm

To handle the rain, simply change to a porous pot and use a builder's gravel mix [ 4 to 5 mm] with a very little organic in the mix.
[ there are Chinese bonsai pots for sale that are porous and glazed, if that is the look you want.]

Take off the wires and leave the plant to just grow.

Give it back as much sun as possible when it is able. No fertilizer.

I think I have that type testing, unless you know it shimpaku, or other ?

Junipers in a tropical climate can be sometimish, they seem to like moist air, but not wet soil.
You are lucky to have Vance responding, guy has years of experience.

Xavier, let me know how the privet does, my own died after living well for 4 to 5 years, lush and growing, then fading.
All from China, and I had quite a few, even grew to a shrub's height, then fading.
Later.
Khaimraj

* I don't specialise in Junipers too problematic for my area.

Khaimraj Seepersad
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:35 pm

Baba K privet grows here very well into huge trees. If it is of any help to you  alien 

Neli
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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:40 pm

G.M.,

it might be that I just gave them the wrong soil, but what is with the  alien [ which I use an envy symbol ] chuckle.
Please dehydrate one and post to ................................ Smile  Laughing 

Trees coming out of the fridge April 1st.
Stay Tuned.
Stay Well.
BabaK [ Khaimraj ]


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Re: Juniper : Need some advice

Post  Neli on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:51 pm

alien  The green monster is an alien...Maybe I or my climate is alien to you. Twisted Evil 
I have several types of private...and it flowers...But it is very high. It is supposed to be a shrub...but I made it into a tree...very tall one and only in 3 years..probably 6-7m...
I kept removing the lower branches and it grew very very tall.
If I find seeds I can send you...but have not seen them yet. In SA it grows like weed in the bush. Lennards digs them from the bush.

Neli
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