Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:00 am

From what i understand somewhere over or maybe just under 800nm it is just radiating heat, and somewhere under 400nm there is UV light that's harmful for humans and plants as well i think, not sure..

So what one want in a grow light is a spectrum witch cover the absorption peaks for chlorophyll A and B within ~400nm-~760nm.


As you can see there are no major peaks in the green part of the spectrum, there are some other pigments that has peaks in green but they also have good absorption rates in the blue and red spectrum, so the green part of the spectrum was long considered by many to be useless for growth, this i believe is the reason why the first LED grow lights where just red and blue.
Later study's i seen have shown that green actually acts as booster if high levels of red and blue light is present, its also good for penetrating the canopy to promote better lower and inner growth, just what we want for Bonsai. Smile

If i remember correctly far red ~760nm in mild doses also helps with growth in shaded areas, also heard red spectrum in general is good for root growth.

Here is the specs for the M30 from SANlights webpage.
http://sanlight.info/wp-content/uploads/Technische-Daten-SANlight-M30.pdf
as you can see the spectrum cover most absorption point, also note that a big part of the spectrum is focused in the red range, this in theory should promote leggy growth with long internode spacing, but i cant really say i have experienced this with the M30's... i will get some photos tomorrow from one of the Ficus.M and you can judge for your self. Smile

Sure the Ficus.M fusing projects i have under the AT120W is even more compact in growth, but this is expected from a 6100K light with such a intense light, its also 120Watt.
Would be very interesting to see for examples Mr.Meislik replacing all his HID lights for AT120W's or the even more powerful AT200W, or a bunch of Onyx Vegg panels, all those panels are crazy powerful!

Will have a little photo update on friday, hopefully some hibiscus flowers under the Onyx Bloom will have opened by then. Smile





Dose anyone know if it is possible to fuse hibiscus plants together?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:27 pm

I just finished setting up my grow box and hung my light. Now to wait for the colder months so I can use the light.




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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:36 pm

Ryan, it looks great! what was the power draw of that monster?

And please, a photo of it on! Smile

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:12 pm

All lights are doing great!

Trees under the Apache grows fast and with very compact internodes, cutting them back often.

Under the Onyx Bloom my Hibiscus is flowering, and some Chili's are are ready to be harvested, the light is definitely doing what it was designed for.


In the bigger HOMEbox everything is growing like crazy, no change there. Would be much more even light coverage in the tent with 2-4 more M30's and a longer hanging frame, but still its pretty impressive that only 180Watts of LEDs is doing such a good job in a 4x2 area, much is off course thanks to the reflecting interior of the HOMEbox.
One can get a very energy efficient setup combining these tents with LED's.


In the smaller HOMEbox things are going great to, decided to skip the CFL .vs. LED thing, will not prove anything really, quality LEDs are much more efficient then CFL's, no doubt about it.

The HOMEbox Q30 and the M30 could be made for each other, like a hand in a glove! Smile

I like how one can use just the frame of the tent with the LED as well, will not win any prices for being a pretty display alternative, but kinda neat and handy setup if one wants to make use of LED and sunshine from a window at the same time.


Would like to get a automatic watering system going.. or i may just have to rethink my soil mix, things are drying up much faster now under LEDs, and i actually have a hard time keeping up some days, seams like the trees just work harder and drink more now, same soil mix as when i used CFL lights before, and radiating heat from CFLs and LEDs are about the same, temps are just one degree Celsius higher inside the tent then ambient temperatures so should not be heat related at all...

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:19 pm

Hi Dreamcast

The information you give us, is of high value to those who play with indoorbonsai Smile
It is time you are being nominated to be moved to the topic  "Top Threads"

Many thanks, kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:19 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

The information you give us, is of high value to those who play with indoorbonsai Smile
It is time you are being nominated to be moved to the topic  "Top Threads"

Many thanks, kind regards Yvonne

Thanks! Yvonne, you are to kind, i am just glad to contribute with what i can. Smile

Best regards.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:42 am

Dreamcast wrote:Ryan, it looks great! what was the power draw of that monster?

And please, a photo of it on! Smile

Not sure what the actual draw is, I'd assume around 450W. Here it is turned on, and boy is it bright:



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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  marc74 on Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:05 am

very cool setup

just be careful if do the same in UK. police helicopters will see and bust door down with weed growing suspicions


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:42 pm

I've begun moving my trees indoors under my LED:


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:57 am

Almost all moved in...


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:06 pm

Ryan, looks great! have the trees shown any signs of stress due to change in light spectrum?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:36 pm

Dreamcast wrote:Ryan, looks great! have the trees shown any signs of stress due to change in light spectrum?

So far, no signs of stress.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:47 pm

This is next LED to test, its a DIY kit from a Aquarium LED company named LEDgroupbuy, it has functions like Sunrise and Sunset, individual control over each nm, and much more, i am building it as we speak, in next update i will go over the building, functions, quality and more.

Looks like computer parts most of it, unless one zoom in.. almost all top bin Cree chips on solid copper plates, nice stuff. Wink


After a rather massive spidermite attack my garden have looked better... but neem oil is some good stuff. Smile
Updates on the garden and all lights coming soon.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:48 pm

Hi Dreamcast

Look forward to see your results with the next lamps...how many more are you planning to test Cool
I think I already found a "setup" among the lamps you have tested, that will work for me.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Completely new to this ... but been working on it for a while ...

Post  laithmarmash on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:28 pm

Thanks you Ian, from http://bonsaieejit.com/ for directing me to this. I am having great success with my 5W LED system for my chilli bonsai plant. Its been going for about 4 weeks now and it seems to be loving it because on a 12/12 cycle its flowering! The start of my journey is here http://www.chillibonsai.com/plant-lover-t1/ Im hopefully going to be making a "no brainer" kit out of this eventually ... any feedback would be appreciated !

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:01 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Dreamcast

Look forward to see your results with the next lamps...how many more are you planning to test Cool
I think I already found a "setup" among the lamps you have tested, that will work for me.

Kind regards Yvonne

Yeah, this light is very different from the rest i tried, also fun building it my self and learning how it works in the process.

I don't know when i will stop testing lights.. i have lately read a lot about induction lights and it sounds promising, the fact that Tesla is the inventor makes it extra interesting.

I am really looking forward to see how the LEDs work for you. Smile


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:37 pm

laithmarmash wrote:Thanks you Ian, from http://bonsaieejit.com/ for directing me to this. I am having great success with my 5W LED system for my chilli bonsai plant. Its been going for about 4 weeks now and it seems to be loving it because on a 12/12 cycle its flowering! The start of my journey is here http://www.chillibonsai.com/plant-lover-t1/ Im hopefully going to be making a "no brainer" kit out of this eventually ... any feedback would be appreciated !  

laithmarmash, Very cool project!! i love Bonchies Very Happy , i have looked in to a automatic watering system for my garden to, a little bigger then yours, but the same principal, having sensors and such is not necessary since i use a 100% soil-less mix, overwatering is almost impossible.
In my case i think a big water tank and a rather powerful pump watering each trees with 1 or 2 spray nozzles, good humidity is solved with the use of a grow tent.

Think you should implement a higher watt LED system, 5 watts will not be enough over time if you want good stable growth, and for a larger tree you definitely need more light, also make it overhead (and adjustable in height) rather then from the side, having to spin the plant often to get balanced growth and reposition of the water nozzle every time will kill the vibe of user friendly automatic plant system.

And there is no need for a extra white display light, today's top bin white LED chips from good manufacturers work perfect for plants, more full spectrum and most of them even sport higher lumens per watt then HID lights. Wink

Hope your project will be a huge success, please keep us updated.




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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:49 pm

This is also a good version for a automatic water system, reusing water should make it better for long vacations. Smile
As long as one use a soilless mix of good particle size and spray nozzles then this system will work very well i think.


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:20 am

What color LEDs are you using for this build?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:59 pm

Ryan wrote:What color LEDs are you using for this build?

If you referring to the light i am building, then it will be a test in two stages, the fixture can only light one of the 2 LED boards at a time.

I will test these 2 LED boards.

1. Lumia 5.2 Full spectrum version.
LED layout:
Channel 1 - 3 Hyper Violet (430nm) and 2 True Violet (410nm) (Violet channel) (18v @ 700mA)  *as of June 1st 2014
Channel 2 - Royal Blue (base blue spectrum) (16.5V @ 1500mA)
Channel 3 - 3 XT-E Netural White and 2 XT-E Warm White (base white color) (16.5V @ 1500mA)
Channel 4 - Turquoise / CREE XPE2 Blue (enhanced color spectrum) (17.2V @ 700mA)
Channel 5 - - 3 Hyper Violet and 2 CREE XT-E Royal Blue (Actinic channel) (18v @ 700mA)
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-70w-full-spectrum-5-channel-cree-led/

2.Lumia 5.2 Grow version.
LED layout:
Channel 1 - XTE-E Royal Blue (base blue spectrum for vegetation) (18V @ 1500mA)
Channel 2 - 730nm Hyper Red (designed for sunrise / sunset) (11v @ 350mA) - Key wavelength to get optimal growth
Channel 3 - 660nm Deep Red (flowering spectrum) (13V @ 700mA)
Channel 4 - 660nm Deep Red (flowering spectrum) (13V @ 700mA)
Channel 5 - XT-E Warm White (high noon effect) (18V @ 1500mA)
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-65w-grow-led-5-channel-for-plants/

Will be interesting with the dimming and timer functions of the fixture, to be able to really fine tune the light spectrum should not just be useful for growing, but also interesting to play around with when photographing ones trees.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  JWT on Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:41 am

I was told by an orchid grower, that light over 700nm increases internodes. If my memory serves me, theory is that higher  the over 700/660 nm ratio is, the longer the internodes are. Can't say, that I fully understand it Very Happy.

There is a logic to that. High morning/evening sun (over 700nm) when compared to noon sun (lots of 660), means that plant could do better by growing to the sun.

With your plan ratio is not hight, if I understand it.

There is a lot of variation how different plant species react to different wavelengths and their ratios. This is one reason people get so mixed results with LEDs. Quite a few growers have switched back to conventional light sources too. Carnivorous plants society of leds.

If we are using full spectrum light, efficiency of the light source is what counts. High quality LEDs, metal halides, compact fluorescents, T5 fluorescents and even common fluorescents are all pretty much at the same level. There are differences, but they are at the 10-30 percent area. Other factors are also important. Like in northern countries humidity is as important as light.

Many times most important thing is, that the light produced is actually at the plants, not on the floors and walls. This means putting lights close enough and using good reflectors.

Lux meter is simple and cheap way to check this. With dominantly white light it also tells a lot of the amount of light produced. Makes it easy to compare different light sources. My meter costed like 30 bucks including postage.


Last edited by JWT on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:38 am

JWT, Nice article! Thanks. Smile

In my experience the more blue present in the spectrum the shorter the internode spacing becomes, and less stretchy growth overall.
More red in the spectrum have shown to do the complete opposite, but promotes flowering very well, and i have read that red nm's also promotes very good root growth
Even though most of this stuff is now published facts since long, i still plan to do some firsthand spectrum experiments with the new LED i am now building.

Today's top brand white LEDs of the highest bin reach around +150-160 Lumens/watt, that's more then the best 1000Watt HID light can produce, and there are already LED chips reaching ~200Lumens/watt!
And LEDs also have a much more rich and balanced spectrum then most traditional light sources.
So its not to hard to see how for example ~100watt of the right white LEDs under the right circumstances can rival ~200-300Watt of HID.

You are right, also IMO one of the biggest reason for LED getting a bad name and why more and more people are switching back to traditional fixtures, is cause most people haven't used the right LEDs, most people get those cheap re-branded Chinese "Disco" panels with inefficient monochrome LED chips, power supply's and heat-management systems, sure there are some decent ones out there, but to be honest most seam to be real crap! and traditional light systems should still in most scenarios crush them in performance.
So people use those "Disco" LEDs, get disappointment, get up on the internet and let everyone know that "LED sucks!" .. and most people reading and hearing this are not aware or really interest in things like quality LED brands, factory quality control, bin codes,  nanometers, spectrum, CCT, CRI and so on..  they want a grow light that works, simple as that!
So they hear and read this over and over that LEDs are crap, and then they start to think and say the same to others and the wheel is rolling..

IMO if one really take there time and do the homework, and get good quality LEDs with the right design, spectrum etc. to fit ones setup perfectly then your trees and electric bill will thank you, if everyone would invest in proper LEDs ,not just for horticultural purposes, then nature (witch we all love) would also be happier in the long run. Smile

Since LEDs are not omni-directinal there is not as much of a need for reflectors then with traditional light fixtures, but lenses and small "cup reflectors" are often a good idea even with LEDs.
Obviously if one uses a closed reflective environment like i do then to directional light is not as necessary as in a open area, plants actually like a lot of diffused light, maybe even nearly as much as intense light...  but i agree totally that there is no reason to light the walls and floor and then a Bonsai in the middle, not very energy efficient at all!

Humidity and temperature are very important indeed, i have now put all my trees in the big tent for the winter to keep them warm, my apartment gets really cold.. Sad

Got my Lux meter for around the same price. gotta love Biltema. Smile its a good, cheap and useful tool..but a Apogee PAR meter is still on my "must get (soon) list".

Heard of this company? very interesting LED products and science behind it, straight out of Finland. Smile
http://valoya.com/

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  JWT on Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:58 am

Ooops, you are right about blue and red. Cant leave it like that, I removed that part. That over 700 nm/660 nm thing was the theory, I took nonsense away. Thank you for pointing that out.

Other light sources advance too. It is hard to say what we use in lets say 10 years time. Meanwhile, plants need to be illuminated.  

There has been 200 lumen/W light sources for decades, they only have one yellow-orange spike in the spectrum, and are totally useless to us. Low-pressure sodium, if I remember (obviously not to be trusted). It is easy to get higher lumen values, just emphasize those parts of the spectrum that plants don't need. It is very difficult to get unbiased information of lets say LEDs spectrums and the total amount of radiation produced. Spectral distribution charts are drawn by marketing people for marketing purposes. BUT if it works for you, then it works, that is what counts.

Lumen values IMHO have limited value when used like that. That said, you can check roughly how big part of the light lamps produce end up in the plants. One can measure the impact of reflecting walls, for example, measuring light inside and outside the growing chamber, at the same distance. With a huge grain of salt one can compare different light sources, but results would not be decisive. Lux-meters sensitivity curve is almost an opposite to what plants need.

You have a meter, could you give me some values? No need to be too specific, just highest value you get under lights lets say 30cm and 60cm away. If you do, please be accurate with the distance. It affects a lot. Sorry, I'm so much into numbers Very Happy.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:45 pm

No worries, i kinda understood you got things mixed up there. Razz

Yeah, can't even begin to try and imagine what we will illuminate indoor gardens with in even 5 years time....

I agree with you, the grow light market is a jungle! especially the LED side of it, more bullshit then truth, to many small company's trying to make quick and easy money selling crap with nice BS marketing and flashy websites, but all this will get better in time now that big company's like Philips really are taking LED grow lights seriously, this will force everyone to really step up there game, and quick!, and in the end there will only be a few big players left, then prices will start to go down, and quality go up! Smile

But until then, everyone interested in LEDs must do there homework, or play it safe and stick with the well proven fixtures like CFL and HID.

I will get you those readings for you, and accurate ones to, no problem at all. Wink

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:41 pm

My indoor garden is still recovering from a rather massive spidermite attack, most trees looks a little sad right now... had nothing major to do this weekend, so a good time to write some short reviews based on my experiences with each LED light i tried so far.

I hope all this to be useful information for people thinking of switching over to LED lights, will also review the grow tents for those that may be looking for simple yet effective grow chambers, maybe even just for overwintering there tropicals.

Just a quick heads up, most people are aware of the things like Tax and Customs costs when ordering stuff from overseas, but for those that are not, please make sure to check what extra costs are involved, or you may get a huge shock when your package arrive.
Since shipping is also quite high when ordering from overseas, and eventual problems or warranty issues are much more easily resolved quicker when staying within ones region, so IMO its often easiest to do so.


I will start with the LEDs.


SANlight M30.(~30Watt) EU.(Austria)

http://sanlight.info/en/products/

The unit it self is basically a large heatsink with LED chips on a aluminum plate attached to it, then a white plastic reflector plate is mounted over the LED board to direct the light, it uses no extra lenses but instead small reflector cups for each LED, its a simple yet very thought out and well executed design.
This light system is also 100% silent since it uses no cooling fans for either light or power supply.

LEDs used are top bin OSRAM witch is a high quality brand with very good reputation, to me it looks like the M30 uses a mix of cool white and red LED chips, but i cant say for sure the exact ratio.
Light being emitted is white with a tone of red, peach color may be the correct term, IMO not hard on the eyes at all.

PLEASE NOTE! If placed closer to the plants red color shadows may be visible under the canopy, so maybe not the best light to use when taking photos of ones trees.

The power supply is remote and of great quality with a good length power cable, cable between light and power supply is also of good length.

I have used the optional hanging frame for my setup, this frame is very simple in design but makes the use of multiple M30 units much easier when hanging, it also gives many options on how to arrange the units on the frame, its a great addition that makes for a lot of extra flexibility.

For small setups this light is great, one light for each tree of not to big size should work very well.

For larger setups more units and the frame option can off course be used, but if not a very organized setup then all the cables and power supply's may become quite irritating.

Its hard to say exactly how many "traditional" watts of different fixture types one M30 replaces, i have used 6 units (180watt) in a ~4x2(~120x60cm) area with around +10 smaller trees/projects, and IMO the growth have been great for the small amount of power being used in such a large area.
I have in the past used more then twice the power of CFL lights over a similar sized area, and the growth then from what i can remember was somewhere similar as with this 180watt LED setup, so there is definitely a step forward in power savings with these LEDs.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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