Help to Prune a bonsai

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Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  alvaro22 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:06 am

Hello, I am new here and I need help, I dont know how can I prune this bonsai, how can i continue? I've made something but no idea how to continue, i am scared to dry that threes, If you could help me please will be a help


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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  Twisted Trees on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:41 pm

You are asking a difficult question for an internet forum. First, where in it growth cycle is it right now?

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:04 pm

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pruning.htm

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  alvaro22 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:04 pm

a difficult question? about bonsais in a bonsai forum? mm ok, Well this is in Spain so autumn just started. The trees are common pines

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  fiona on Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:14 pm

Are you asking us about the pruning techniques needed for pines or are you asking us for advice on styles for your trees?

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:14 am

[ Warning long answer ahead ]

alvaro22 wrote:a difficult question? about bonsais in a bonsai forum? mm ok, Well this is in Spain so autumn just started. The trees are common pines
Alvaro22 there's a lot of info missing before we can give point you in any direction.
From your reaction I understand that you are new to pine bonsai.
So let me try to clarify why we need additional info before we can give any specific answer.
I'm going to generalize/simplify a lot, so if I'm making any major mistake please correct me guys.

1. How many needles does it have?
There are loads of varieties of pines and a "common pine" will vary from one place to another.
Where I live a common pine would be a slash pine.
In Japan a common pine could be a black pine or red pine or white pine depending where in what region you are.
In europe a common pine could be a mugo pine or scots pine or something else.
Here's a list of the various pines species out there : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinus_classification

Now why do we want to know exactly or as close a possible what species of pine this is, its because depending on the type of pine it has to be handled differently to create ramification.
You have for instance 2 needle pines ( eg. black pine) and 5 needle pines (eg. white pine). You cannot use 2 needles pines techniques on a 5 needle pine and vise-versa.

You have generic candle cutting techniques, but like Fiona wanted to clarify:
"Are you asking us about the pruning techniques needed for pines or are you asking us for advice on styles for your trees?"
Do you want to just prevent the tree from throwing long leggy shoots or are you trying to start to create a structure/ramification/foliage pads?


2. Like Twisted Trees asked : "First, where in it growth cycle is it right now?" or if you prefer in what growth state is the plant in right now?
Some pine throw two growth per year [ eg. 2 needle pines ] and others 1 growth per year [ eg. 5 needle pines ]
You need to know if your tree falls in which category to plan when you will work on the tree.
You also need to know in what growth state it is:
Usually its a cycle:
Dormancy > Bud formation > Bud swelling > Rapid candle growth > Juvenile needle formation > Needle Maturing > [ Back to dormancy and it starts all over again]

There are pruning techniques that are applied at specific stages. Used at the wrong time, it could weaken your tree.

Autumn will not give us any clue as such. If its a two growth per year plant or one growth per year plant, it could be in bud formation state or needle maturing state, in which case the actions you could undertake are completely different.



For simply pruning the candles here's some generic info:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATPine%20Pruning.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATPine%20Pruning%202.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATMugo%20Pines%20Indepth.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines2.htm
http://ofbonsai.org/species-specific/two-needle-pine-care-basics
http://www.adamsbonsai.com/pine_foliage.pdf

If you prefer videos, here's some youtube vids,
just do a "bonsai pine pruning", I liked the content quality of Ryan Neil lectures so I would also suggest "Ryan Neil bonsai pine pruning"

Ryan Neil on Japanese Black, Red and White Pine care : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ngvzuN-F4
Ryan Neil Black Pine Demo : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZUUSdUSZ0s
Ryan Neil Lecture on Pines pt1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo
Ryan Neil Lecture on Pines pt2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Y6j2wgI2U
Bonsai Focus Demo White Pine - Ryan Neil : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDBJNXAB5Js
Ryan Neil Tip: Compensating for Reverse Taper : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EsgjZ-qncQ

How to Style a Mugo Pine : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6x8QjfWVJA

Seasonal Japanese Black Pine Care :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74E1bVMkBE
Candle Pruning Pines : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcDnA45P1XU
Japanese Black Pine Bonsai Pruning : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJMJIvvb3to

[ WARNING THIS ONE IS IN JAPANESE ] World of Masahiko Kimura - Japanese White Pine : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNprIfLOX5Q



So to summerize:
> So is it a 2 needle or 3 needle or 5 needle or more needle pine?
> In what growth cycle is it right now? [ Dormancy > Bud formation > Bud swelling > Rapid candle growth > Juvenile needle formation > Needle Maturing ]
> Does it have 1 growth per year, 2 growth per year?

There might be other questions, but those three would be a good start.
You could add the tree species, but if you don't know for sure its not a big deal.
Try to get close up of the bark and needle clusters and some people here could try to identify it.


Last note:
There are some pine species that are not commonly used, like say slash pine [ Pinus Elliottii ]. You won't get any definite "Slash pine guide to creating a bonsai" on the net. There are people who are creating bonsai out of Slash pine materials, but its mostly on their own and using their knowledge of how the other pines are treated to adjust on how to handle that specif pine species.

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:12 am

Good response, Xavier. Thanks.

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  Snoo on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:42 pm

alvaro22 wrote:a difficult question? about bonsais in a bonsai forum? mm ok, Well this is in Spain so autumn just started. The trees are common pines
what we call common pines in Italy are pinus pinea, what in spain you call manso or alvar a a couple other names, the English call it Italian Stone Pine maybe that's what yours is? if you look for "conifers identification" (in Spanish not in English, so you are more sure to be looking for something that grows in your area) you will probably find one of those sites that will help you finding what kind of pine you have by its characteristics (needles, grouping etc)...
When I started as a teenager I went for pines because they were common where I lived and all the pictures I saw of bonsai were pines, so I followed one of those booklets of the kind "introduction to bonsai" and killed 3 pines and gave up. The book didn't explain much, there was no internet and I knew nothing, like you I thought "a pine is a pine is a pine" now after having learned a lot more working with the big trees im at it again found out much much more than what I knew back then and realized that pines aren't even the easiest to learn on.
There are many kind of pines some strong, some delicate, some conifers respond to certain techniques that would kill others, in the same season some kind are at a certain point in their growth and other kinds are at another point. In making a bonsai there are different stages and even in those you do different things. That is why they replied to your question in the way they did, they aren't snobs, and if you answer their questions at your best they will try to help you...
If you can understand English well from videos these two will give you an idea on how some things work on pines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn1FiRw2JBo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Y6j2wgI2U

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  alvaro22 on Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:19 am

Thank you for the answers and the video, The pinus i recolected myself in the forest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_pine this is exactly the kind of pine. Pinus pinaster, the maritime pine, that's the ones in the picture. I would also like to know what kind of styles could this pine have. On the videos there are some that I like. Thanks for that. I saw many pinus. I also got some of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_pine stone pine, pinus pinea, You dont have in usa but should be all similar. Autumn here just started,, so pinecones are falling down now. I saw i must wait a month to prune? not sure. Are located in full sun and outdoor.
Thank you for the answers, it helps a lot.

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

Post  Snoo on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:18 pm

if its a maritime its a two flush per year pine, you should be able to think about it in the same way of the japanese black pines.
The others know more than me about this but i would use the winter to learn as much as possible and think pruning at the beginning of next year
Sorry if i reposted the links of the pine lecture, cant edit it anymore, didnt see that they were already posted, thats what i get reading the forum on a 2inch phone screen

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Re: Help to Prune a bonsai

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