Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

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Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:15 pm

I bought two small Japanese Mums from our local bonsai nursery (Cass Bonsai, Edwardsville, IL).

Milt brings a few samples of whatever we are working on, or are planning to work on.

Both mums are preparing blossom.

I'm tempted to transfer these trees from their 2 inch pots to 5 or 6 inch pots, but I have a nagging suspicion that I do not want to do this until after they are finished blooming. Technically, I could kep them in the smaller pots until Spring.

According to the vendor, I have two options, let them blossom and then let them go dormant for the winter, or, I could let them blossom, clip off all of the blossoms and move them to an area where I could push the fertilizer, water and put under daylight bulbs for 16 to 18 hours a day to push root, trunk and top growth.

Again, whatever I do, I believe should wait until after the blossoms fade.

I'll get some photos uploaded this weekend.

Thanks,

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  JimLewis on Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:25 am

I'd let them go dormant. If you force them over the winter, they'll reach spring pretty worn out.

I assume you plan to bonsai them. I've been to several Chrysanthemum bonsai shows in Japan. You seldom see them over here. I think Bill Valavanis has a few. Dale Cochoy (see the pots forum) has worked with them, too, if I recall rightly. I've tried a couple of times, but lost them midway, somehow.

The Second edition of Sunset's "Bonsai" book had a page on mum bonsai. Kan Yashiroda devoted a chapter in his "Bonsai: Japanese Miniature Trees" (1960) to Chrysanthemum bonsai. I don't really recall much written anywhere else -- though I think Dale mentioned he found something on the web a few years ago.

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  John Quinn on Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:43 am

Some time ago, I found The Art Of The Chrysanthemum - Japanese Techniques for creating Bonsai, Cascades, Giants, and Other Potted Styles, by Nakajima on ebay, first ed., Harper and Row, 1965

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  NeilDellinger on Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:06 am

Jay,
Question and comments. What color do you have? I have red w/ yellow center. If you have other maybe we could swap cuttings.

I've grown these for a couple of years. A friend and club member has grown them from cuttings for the past 5+ maybe 10+. I am almost ready to slip mine into a decorative pot.

Right before they bloom, or as they begin to open you can repot. Just slip pot them or take a little soil off of the roots. Take care to choose a pot that compliments the blossom color. Then keep them moist. They will be fine if you do this now. Leave the plant in the chosen pot until spring. When it warms up and begins to send new shoots from the soil.... or if you're lucky the old trunk then repot/divide into smaller plants. Repeat next year with more plants. Fertilize & pinch all year.

For future reference....If you repot and disturb the roots too much BEFORE flower buds have time to develop, the plant will not likely produce many blooms. You should be pinching throughout the growing season to arrive at the desired shape. Light wiring is also a doable thing through the season.

These plants are herbaceous/perennials. They may die back above ground but will reprout every year.

The suggested book is a great one, both as a general addition to your library as well as if you really plan on growing these alot.

You don't need a funky light set up, just enjoy the blossoms, let it go dormant, protect it in the winter and grow again. Simple (KISS principle). They're not tropicals.

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:50 am

Neil, with all you had to add I figure it is just as easy to answer you in the midst of your test and print it in bold, hope this helps.


Question and comments. What color do you have? I have red w/ yellow center. If you have other maybe we could swap cuttings.

From the labels provided by Cass Bonsai, one is white and the other is lavender. Both are well within the process of blooming.


I've grown these for a couple of years. A friend and club member has grown them from cuttings for the past 5+ maybe 10+. I am almost ready to slip mine into a decorative pot.

I'm thinking of slip potting them, if for no other reason than to provide a little more insulation to the roots.

Right before they bloom, or as they begin to open you can repot. Just slip pot them or take a little soil off of the roots. Take care to choose a pot that compliments the blossom color. Then keep them moist. They will be fine if you do this now. Leave the plant in the chosen pot until spring. When it warms up and begins to send new shoots from the soil.... or if you're lucky the old trunk then repot/divide into smaller plants. Repeat next year with more plants. Fertilize & pinch all year.

At this time there is no reason to divide, they have both been developed as single trunk trees, in future years they may shoot new stalks, I'll worry about them at that time.

For future reference....If you repot and disturb the roots too much BEFORE flower buds have time to develop, the plant will not likely produce many blooms. You should be pinching throughout the growing season to arrive at the desired shape. Light wiring is also a doable thing through the season.

Milt told me to pinch them regularly until the daylight starts to get down to the 8 or 9 hour daylight, then let them go to bloom.

These plants are herbaceous/perennials. They may die back above ground but will reprout every year.

I can't remember the temperature hardiness, but once put in the coldframe, they should never go much below freezing. I can arange the coldframe to keep the hardiest plants at the bottom and the coldest towards the top.

The suggested book is a great one, both as a general addition to your library as well as if you really plan on growing these alot.

You don't need a funky light set up, just enjoy the blossoms, let it go dormant, protect it in the winter and grow again. Simple (KISS principle). They're not tropicals.

Tomorrow, once daylight breaks I will isolate the trees and get some photos to post.

The Springfield Bonsai Society does a Mum project every year, so hopefully, they will be able to guide me first hand.

Thanks all for the advice and the reading recommendations.

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  NeilDellinger on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:56 am

Jay,
Regarding division. I was not recommending you do this now. Do this in the spring/summer when they send new shoots from the soil and base of the trunk. They have the same identical growth habit as mums sitting outside on walmart's sidewalks. It is highly unlikely you will get a trunk an branches that persist for more than a season or two.

As far as hardiness...You can treat these just as people do w/ regular mums...only not as disposable color for fall baskets.

If they're nice plants....slip them into a nice glazed pot and take some pictures to share with the forum! After all that's why they're grown.

Milt and Brian do a great job there. I am sure you got some quality plants from them.

Neil

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  rock on Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:01 am

hey J.,
I have bought a lot of mums from King's mums

you might get some inspiration there

http://www.kingsmums.com/

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:19 pm

Thanks, beatiful trees. Got any closeups?

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  JimLewis on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:10 pm

John Quinn wrote:Some time ago, I found The Art Of The Chrysanthemum - Japanese Techniques for creating Bonsai, Cascades, Giants, and Other Potted Styles, by Nakajima on ebay, first ed., Harper and Row, 1965

Well, www.abebooks.com has a copy for $40.00 and there's a used copy available at one of Amazon.com's dealers for $35. Several others for up to $90.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  JimLewis on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:16 pm

Look here: http://seiciro.tripod.com/photoalbum/Bonsai/

And here: http://www.thegardenlady.org/2008/11/17/chrysanthemum-bonsai-in-japan/

and: http://www.johnharveyphoto.com/Japan2/Matsumoto/BonsaiChrysanthemum.html

and finally . . . http://moblog.net/view/871401/chrysanthemum-bonsai-2-in-japan

All by googling 'chrysanthemum bonsai'.

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Japanese Chrysanthemums - New Photos added

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:06 am

Here are a few photos of the two Chysanthemums, I picked up. I didn't measure them, but the label stake should provide something to compare it to..

#1:



#1 Top:



#2



#2 Top



Sorry numer 2 got cut off in the posting process.

They are both nice and healthy.

My guess would be to slip pot them until Spring then put them into a growing container to get them to beef up.

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 pm

Next question, the blossoms continue to swell. Tonights temperature is supposed to close in on 40*F. Will this sudden drop in nightime temperatures, from mid 50s to almost 40 effect the blossom formation?

Should I bring it in at night until after its done blooming?

Thanks,

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  NeilDellinger on Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:25 am

Jay,
The drop in temps should not hurt the blossoms that have not yet opened. Frost will hurt the ones that are open. But they should continue on for a short time even after the first frost if you have a few "warm" days. Keep the plants in a sunny location.

As for your plan of slip potting. Don't expect too much out of "beefing" these plants up. As I mentioned they are not trees, but perennials. Do expect some die back even with winter protection. Don't let them freeze solid or dry out too much.

Nice plants, the chrysanthemum book suggested will teach you how to grow this same plant or more in 1 growing season.

Neil

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:32 am

Thanks Neil,

I've looked for copies of the book. The suppliers I found were out of stock. I'll have to borrow one, if I can find it.

As perrenials, would they be overstressed by returning them to an indoor growing area or do they need to take a winter rest?

Several have indicated that I should let them go dormant.

That being said, Milt Cass (the bonsai nursery owner said they would do just fine by deadheading the blossoms and returning them to a 16 to 18 hour phototrophic period and feeding them regularly. Does this strengthen the plant or weaken it?

I guess Chrysanthemum School is now in session! Question

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  NeilDellinger on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:20 am

Jay,
I suppose you can do whatever you like...let them go dormant or keep pushing them along. Its just a matter of how MUCH you'd like to do. Not sure if this strengthens the plant or not to be quite honest....BUT I do know that my personal preference is to take the easy/lazy way out and let them go dormant then wait till spring. One option is to allow them some dormancy and then wake them up early and start your season early. This may afford you a couple extra months of growing season.

Hows the weather there in the land o Lincoln, outght to be pork & apple season 'eh? My aunt sells pottery there...maplewoods pottery. After enjoying the long growing season here in Tulsa (February-November) I can't say I want to move back to Bloomington anytime soon.

Neil

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:50 am

Thanks,

I'm not in a hurry with the mums. Its a cart before the horse scenario. I bought the mums before I knew anything about them. THen again, I buy everything before I know anything about them! Its a curse. Laughing

Apple & Pork Feastival ended this past Sunday. We usually make it at least one doy, but managed to stay busy all week end and missed the whole thing. Hopefully, your aunt had a good weekend. When the festival has good weather, it can be a blast. When its rainy, its a major mud hole.

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Dale Cochoy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:35 pm

The book Jim and John mentioned is definitely a must if you intend to get enthusiastic about mum bonsai.
Kings mums has a nice little 'bonsai' booklet they wrote about using their mums, very cheap little book and very helpfull.
In 2001 our local club did a year-long mum workshop using Kings Mum cuttings of their recommended types for bonsai. We started with their VERY CHEAP rooted cuttings in early spring. It was a very cheap workshop for everyone and most folks bought all the offered types.
I wrote an article for the American Bonsai Society Journal which you can find in Spring 2002, vol. 36, #1 , pg. 24 if you have access to these mags. I included some pics of a few of our year-end trees.
As I recall, the biggest problem most had was with fungus on them right near blooming time. It was tough to get nice pics of them blooming on some due to the greyish leaves.

Dale

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:00 pm

Thanks everyone,

I'm still on the fence. I placed an order with Amazon, but it is based on availability. I just ordered the "Beginner's Handbook" and "Growing Chysanthemums as Trees" pamphlet from the American Chrysanthemum Society. Nothing wrong with keeping mum about the mums until I finish learning about them. An officer of our Bonsai Club has a copy of "Art..." and promises to bring it to our next meeting.

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:58 pm

I received two e-mail responses from the US National Chrysanthemum Society, included below. I also ordered two bookletsm, a beginners guide to growing Chrysanthemums and a pamphlet on how to grow chrysanthemums as trees. John's responses are included below.

The first responded to the question "coldframe or grow station":

Jay,

Excellent question, it really depends on the cultivar and your conditions.

If you're attempting to create an 'old wood bonsai', then I would suggest the following, based on the work of H. Carl Young and Tameji Nakajima, (The Art of the Chrysanthemum),

Dead head before blooms start to fade.
Place in cold frame, keep between 38 and 50 degrees, put an incandescent bulb on a timer to interrupt the long nights (2 hours at 2 AM)
Keep the soil on the dry side.

If you want to try to grow as a tropical, then keep them warm, well lighted (18hrs of artificial light to supplement natural day light). There is the possibility that they will grow 'blind' and not produce flower buds if not vernalized properly (enough chill hours).

When you finish your experiment, please write an article.

Also you should be making cuttings.

I'll be completing work on a How To Video for chrysanthemum bonsai.
Check out my yahoo user group, Chrysanthemum Bonsai

John Capobianco


The second was a supplemental respons provided by John:

Jay,

Your first cultivar that you are trying to grow as a 'tree' is Chidori which is a bonsai cultivar. If you can find it, Peggy is a better choice for growing a 'tree', which in mum speak we call a 'standard'.

Thickening the trunks is all about root run and feeding.

Check out the yahoo user group.

I will also be finishing the taping of my How To video at the national show next month.

I am interested in starting a US Chrysanthemum Bonsai Club.

John

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:59 pm

Looks like we will be taking up residence in the cold frame and beginning the search for 'Chidori' and 'Peggy'.

JAy

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:19 pm

Hope it's ok for a guy to change his mind!

After a lengthy series of e-mails with the National Chrysanthemum Society - USA I believe the mums will be retreating to the basement tropical area for the winter.

Apparently, if kept in the cold frame they must be kept above freezing to prevent the plant (above the soil) from dying back. Both mums have nicely established trunks and I want to ensure it continues to thicken and develop and not risk die-back. Additional shoot from the roots can be extricated or cut to be used as new plant material.

The two cultivars I have are Chidori (white) and Yukari (pink). Next is to find the yellow and the red. The flowers are very small. Both plants are in bloom. I will add photos this weekend.

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:50 pm

Here are a few of the mums our society used as display pieces at our show, click on the photos to enlarge:

This first one was the youngest and smallest:



The 2nd is starting to build a top:



These two are mine, they were just starting to get a good blosom display. As of today, they are both much fuller:



Milt Cass has been working on these two for the past several months:



Lastly, this is two mums with single trunks that Chris worked together to form a much larger canopy. Unfortunately, the blossoms were just starting to open:



Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:50 pm

SInce the show the blooms have really popped. Here are some photos of the two taken this morning.

Chidori:







The little start at the base of the tree is a branch that broke in the car, so I stick it in the soil to see if it will root.

Yukari:







If you look at the base of the Yukari, it appears the "tree" has decided to again be a bush. We'll nip that in the bud ASAP, but not before we decide if we ban propagate what we nip.

Once they both finish blooming they will be pruned back and trained to create a larger mass and shape for future blooms. I'm looking for broom style for the Chidori and cascade for the Yukari.

Jay[b]

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  Jay Gaydosh on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:05 pm

Can anyone tell me how long mum flowers last?

These are going on a month now and don't show any signs of dropping flowers.

The plants are beginning to shoot new growth fro the root mass. So I hope to have some new starts in Spring.

Jay

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Re: Advice needed for two Japanese Chrysanthemums

Post  JimLewis on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:25 pm

That's why mums make such great cut flowers. They may last well into the first few frosts.

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