Need help in Japan

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Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:29 pm

I am from Zambia. Our climate here is :
Winter lowest temperature is 6 degree Celsius, which is 42 F
We are at altitude level 1500 meters.
No hot temperatures like in Europe or California...our summer is cool. Heat in Japan now is 42 C
All pines are outside on full sun.
I am at school at Taisho en in Japan now at international bonsai school. I bought one white pine dwarf variety...yatsubusas cousin myiogi.
I would like to buy some more black and white pine, but I am not sure if they will survive here.
Is there any one that has grown white pine for longer than three years in a place that has winter temperatures not lower than mine.
What is important is the winter temperature....heat they can survive, but not sure how much winter resting temperature they need to do well and I don't plan to build any cold rooms.
Any advise on which species I should not buy will be greatly appreciated, since I like them all and might end up buying unsuitable ones.
I shall post when I go back home in a month time all the things I learned here.
I like the pines so much that I hope beyond reason someone has managed them out there with my type of climate.

Neli
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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:03 am

Neli,

Japanese black pines grow here well, but they are from seed. I am not sure how a JBP matured in Japan would acclimate to your milder climate. Same goes for the white Pine. You might have problems with anything acclimated to the Japanese temperatures, so perhaps you should be prepared to purchase small young plants.
Best of growing.
Khaimraj

* Enjoying your reports from Japan - big thank you!!

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:34 am

Khaimraj Darling, thanks a million! I came to school this morning and asked oyakata. He said yamadori or white pine grown from seed will not do well here. But he said I should buy white pine grafted on black pine and those are very strong....and he said they will do well here, but I want to hear about white pine more from people that have actually had it in similar conditions.
Thanks for the info on the black pine....how are your temperatures there in winter.
I here there is another variety of white pine in Taiwan good for tropical climate.

Neli
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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Jkd2572 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:04 am

I have a white pine grafted on black pine. It does well in my 100degree f. Summers. You get the nice white pine foliage on the hardy black pine stock. It's a very nice compromise. We have very mild winters where it might only freeze a few times.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:39 am

Frost is good for pines....where are you so I check your temperatures ....my temps never go bellow 6C and that is the bad part....pines don't mind any heat....here it is like a furnace now....and they are all outside.
What they need is frost to rest....

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:13 am

Neli,

we never go below 18 deg.c and our lowest ever recorded is 15 deg.c .
Highest point 940 m.

Simple buy a few year old white pines, and take them home, see if they can survive on your side, grow a few black pines from seed, using the techniques in Vol 20 of Bonsai Today. In 4 to 6 years the black pines will have 7.5 cm trunks and then graft on the white pine branches.

Why don't you ask Alexandra to send you some Pinus Halipensis seed [ needles can be 5 cm short in nature ] as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Pinus_halepensis2.jpg

Be adaptable, it's Bonsai.
Best to you.
Khaimraj

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:34 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

we never go below 18 deg.c and our lowest ever recorded is 15 deg.c .
Highest point 940 m.

Simple buy a few year old white pines, and take them home, see if they can survive on your side, grow a few black pines from seed, using the techniques in Vol 20 of Bonsai Today. In 4 to 6 years the black pines will have 7.5 cm trunks and then graft on the white pine branches.

Why don't you ask Alexandra to send you some Pinus Halipensis seed [ needles can be 5 cm short in nature ] as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Pinus_halepensis2.jpg

Be adaptable, it's Bonsai.
Best to you.
Khaimraj
That is good news. It makes me hope that I will manage the black pine at least. I have some pinus halipensis seeds growing. I collected them in SA. I was told the leaf does not reduce too well. I don't know...how are they as bonsai.
Thanks a lot!

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:53 am

Neli,

just remembered. There are Japanese Black Pines with needles at 2.5 cm naturally. They may fall under the category of Yatsubusa.

Ask around and see if you can get samples of those. Should help with the desire for small needles.

Additionally try Zuisho in white pines, as the small samples.
Good Luck.
Khaimraj

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:42 am

I already bought after long convincing a new variety of black pine that has short needles and is grafted on normal black pine....just that is a small one. Those are not available for sale yet...oyakata got it from someone so I got one....small one, but I can not find anywhere big one like that.
I shall try to post picture for you...I don't know if I understood well oyakata, but he said no need for candle cutting....just like white pine styling. I shall ask him tomorrow again.
This is the little new variety black pine that I managed to wiggle out of oyakata....
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p206x206/533752_10200136767413966_387210665_n.jpg


Last edited by Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  JimLewis on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:49 pm

It would be nice if someone who actually lives where temperatures get to 6 C or thereabouts would give her a hand.  Answers from Southern Texas and the tropics while well intentioned aren't very meaningful.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Sakaki on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:10 pm

JimLewis wrote:It would be nice if someone who actually lives where temperatures get to 6 C or thereabouts would give her a hand.  Answers from Southern Texas and the tropics while well intentioned aren't very meaningful.
Second that!

Neli, my region's lowest temp. in winter is 1-3 C and highest temp. in summer is 36-38 C (very similar to yours), and I failed with that white pine a few times as well as mugos! Sad

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:30 pm

Jim, Thanks, I am sorry. Is mugo and black pine the same thing? I am not sure...here I hear kuromatco ....and that is all. I know it is black pine but not sure if mugo is the same.
Thanks so much....
Tanner, if you don't manage white pine with those temperatures I would not manage it too. Was it a white pine grafted on black pine if I may ask? Maybe it can make a difference?


Last edited by Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:32 pm

Tanner thanks for the second....unfortunately I can not quote also.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:44 pm

On this browser I can quote.....
This a little yatsubusa type white pine which I bought...called miyagi....plan to keep it mame....and maybe I can shove it in the fridge...for winter. Not too sure though. This is how it looks like after cutting half the branches and oyakata styling it.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1150330_10200128873136614_1243260344_n.jpg

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:22 pm

Jim,

Neli, is also asking the same question on Bnut, and getting the same answer and also in replies from the area where she lives. Japanese white pine just won't work, as a mature tree.

However, I did get a Japanese white pine seedling to grow for two years before the parasol ants ate it.
So if she takes seedlings back, she might have a better chance, and as long as they can withstand a top temperature of say 33 deg.c for two weeks. She might have a chance.
However she might have to simulate winter for two months in the refridgerator.

Additionally, she needs to think a bit more. If the Japanese White pine will not grow on her side, then chances are the white pine stock with the 2.5 cm Japanese Black Pine grafts, will probably die as well.

So Neli will have to search for rooted cuttings of the 2.5 cm needle length, Japanese Black pine.

She can also do a google at some point for other pines that might give her what she wants.

Part of the problem is that elevation of 1500 m [ over 4,500 feet ] in the sub-tropics, it will give her unusual weather.

If in Japan her exterior temperature is 42.C, then she is way past what we stop at [ 33 deg.c and only an hour or less.]

Wonder how many other places in world, doing bonsai, has Neli's temperature range ?
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:08 pm

Sorry, I meant and corrected it...the new type black pine is grafted on black pine normal one. I posted on all the forums I know...it is not easy to find someone with my type of winter temperatures that grows white pine... At least I am gathering some relevant info....that might help some how to make up my mind.
I think so fat...I will go with cheap ones...to see if they will manage. But it takes over 3 years to know....they deteriorate very slowly.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:24 pm

Neli,

have you checked out the Japanese Red Pine? or the Shimpaku or the Needle or other Juniper types ?
Cryptomeria ?
Stay cool.
Khaimraj

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Sakaki on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:00 pm

Neli wrote:Jim, Thanks, I  am sorry. Is mugo and black pine the same thing? I am not sure...here I hear kuromatco ....and that is all. I know it is black pine but not sure if mugo is the same.
Thanks so much....
Tanner, if you don't manage white pine with those temperatures I would not manage it too. Was it a white pine grafted on black pine if I may ask? Maybe it can make a difference?
Yes Neli, it was grafted, but I am not sure if it was grafted on black pine!

Taner

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  JimLewis on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:07 pm

Is mugo and black pine the same thing?
No. Mugo are from Europe and come from a totally different environment.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:50 pm

Thanks Taner, if it was grafted it must be on black pine. It does not make much sense to me to graft it on other things unless some local pines that can enhance it.
Thanks Jim,
I never had before pines. Only few seedlings of halipensis. I can not buy them here. But we have commercial forests of black pine here. Just need to find out what they are. They are to the north of the country a bit far from here. This pines here drive me crazy...they are so tempting, I know pines need expertise, and that is the reason I decided to concentrate on them....just hoped I can hear some good news about white pine, but seems there are none.

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artificial winter

Post  Leo Schordje on Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:53 am

Unfortunately, I doubt you will be able to keep white pine, or any north temperate mountain pine alive more than a year or two unless you work out a space for artificial winter. If you have trees small enough to fit into a refrigerator, you might be able to "fake" a winter.

P. parvifolia needs roughly a 100 to 120 day winter rest. If I were to try a JWP in your climate, beginning in fall, October in northern hemisphere, for 45 nights put the tree into refrigerator at night. The refrigerator should be set for a temperature between 4 C and 2 C. This 45 days of normal sunny days and chilled nights will signal to the the tree it is autumn. Then beginning about November 15, or after 45 days, just put the tree in the refrigerator and leave it there. If it stays at 4 C or lower the tree should not be metabolizing rapidly enough that it would really require light. It will be able to get by on stored sugars.

After 90 to 120 days of constant cold, you can bring the pine out of the refrigerator. The first week or two out of the refrigerator keep it in bright shade, after that it could go back into the sun.

If you have a large restaurant style walk in refrigerator, you might be able to keep the plants on a cart, and just wheel them in an out.

This would be a lot of expense to construct. Definitely labor intensive and in my own mind not a practical solution, but it would be the way I would attempt to solve the problem. Mountain pines are not practical in tropical climates.

The only other solution is to use sub-tropical and tropical members of genus Pinus. Pinus radiata is a sub-tropical pine. It has been planted widely around the world into areas I thought were more tropical than not. The Japanese black pine is more likely to get by with minimal cooling, especially if you can get seedlings sourced from the southern most islands of the Japanese archipelago. There are a number of pine species native to Mexico and some species are found south through Central America into Venezuela. Spend a little time with the species list on Wikipedia and see which ones are native to tropical climates, and try a few of these. I suspect most sub-tropical and tropical Pinus species will respond reasonably well to JBP techniques. The tropical long needled pines are likely unsuitable for bonsai, but I bet Pinus radiata will work well for medium and larger size bonsai.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:40 am

Leo, this one hell of a fantastic info. I don't think that I am ready to go the refrigerator way, so it is good what you told me. I have a walk in cold room behind the bar....but I don't think I will go that way....maybe just my mame yatsubusa pine.
I was told that in Thailand they have a tropical variety of white pine, by oyakata. Next year I plan to go there for some hollidays and bonsai. Meanwhile I shall investigate that possibility.
I wish I new where to get radiata. But I shall try to source it some how. Meanwhile I shall stick with black pine. Is that going to be OK? You did not say anything definite about it. jBP, is not a mountain species as far as I know.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  leatherback on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:03 am

I would say that you have loads of bonsai artists in the mediteranean area. There you get similar climate: Temps in the 40-ies C in summer, winter dropping to not below 5 degrees. Think southern Italy etc. Would mauro Stemberger have some experience with this, and/or know people with similar climatic conditions? I do not know him myself, but am sure several on this forum do. http://www.italianbonsaidream.com/

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:57 am

Thanks Jelle. That is another good idea. I shall send him an email.

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Re: Need help in Japan

Post  Neli on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:10 am

Jelle I sent him a message on FB. Let's hope he will reply but I have lost hope already...just hoping for at least a black pine....today was black pine lessons and styling. My oyakata stood up and started clapping on my second pine. He says I have gone levels up....he said he is very impressed and I almost cried from happiness. I was feeling so low, and tired....when he told me that...I just started wiring the next pine like a machine....he told me to get any pine I want from a long row of pines....that is a big trust....I got a mame...and regretted it soon after....the branches are so thick , small and near....that panick has set I not to break something.

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Re: Need help in Japan

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