can a trunk work in reverse?

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can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  marcus watts on Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:29 am

hi everyone,

we know it is easy to graft foliage and roots onto junipers - can the trunk work in reverse though and have the root sections added to the current top and the foliage added to the bottom - picture a tree with inverse taper that would be stunning if the widest point (the current apex) was at pot level with the roots and the thinnest trunk section ( the current trunk base) was the new top....this means the sap would have to flow the opposite way to the current growth pattern - can it do that?

cheers Marcus

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  prestontolbert on Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:07 am

Definitely, Kimura pioneered the technique with big old yamadori.  He showcased the roots. He "reversed the sky and the earth"
He talks about it in episode 4 of the World of Bonsai
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=wob%20episode%20kimura&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QuAIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dw45GA1jBucA&ei=UAkXUv-_DeOc2AX0i4CABA&usg=AFQjCNFuE7ad1VZpNSAd27-Y3q77V2POvA

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Mal B on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:23 pm

Can the sap flow reverse ? ............yes it can, know of a very nice Acer Campestre that has roots which are now branches. Smile 

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  berobinson82 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:31 pm

In the case of Kimura's juniper, I was told that the live vein was completely detached from the dead wood, the dead wood was inverted and the live vein was reattached. So almost like a tanuki. Was that inaccurate information?

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Glaucus on Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:47 pm

Phloem can transport both ways but the xylem is one direction only.
Besides that, I think tissue has hardwired into it what side is up and what side is down.

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  0soyoung on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:59 pm

I rather doubt that it will succeed, Marcus, because of polar auxin transport.

The sap can go anywhere it is needed (over, under, sideways, down). Photosynthates from the foliage travel in the phloem to where ever it is needed, though this is generally away from the foliage. Water and minerals as 'xylem sap' can go any direction, but goes from root to foliage just because transpiration in the foliage creates the driver for 'xylem sap' flow.

Though not 'sap', per se, auxins (phytoharmone also known as 'rooting hormone'), are transported from cell to cell (in the cambium) and signal what is 'up' and 'down'. Auxins only move one way because of proteins in the cell walls, going from shoot tips and foliage toward the roots. Tissues near the root collar may be easily reprogrammed: a chunk of many species from near the ground level can be planted upside down and it will grow shoots from what was roots and roots from the other end.  Willows are an example as are most species that sucker and many tropicals. However, twigs from near the branch ends almost inevitably will only root from the originally downward end. In between, I suppose, may or may not - I suspect generally not and that your proposition won't end well if you try it, Marcus.

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  GaryWood on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:18 am

0so, very good reply! Sorry Marcus but there are some limits to polarity. Not to say its not possible but with temperate climate trees not probable.
Wood

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Mal B on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:39 am

A tree cut of at the very base and which has been pushed over with half it's roots in the air could never produce branch's from the roots ?.

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Justin_ on Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:06 pm

How about trying it in two stages. First you plant the tree on its side and get it to root like a raft. Upward growth from that would then be planted on its side some years later. I'm imagining custom-made growing boxes would be needed.

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:00 pm

Hi Marcus...show us the tree Smile 

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:24 pm

just watching Marcus Wink 

... somebody already gave a lead about Kimuras tree.

regards,
jun Smile 

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  marcus watts on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:08 pm

jun wrote:just watching Marcus  Wink 

... somebody already gave a lead about Kimuras tree.

regards,
jun Smile 
hahha, hello Jun my wicked Suspect friend....i guessed you would be watching Laughing Laughing Laughing  I can see the confusion with the tree 'resurrection', in the early book it appears roots sprouted from the remaining living shoot so the tree could be flipped, in a later interview it is translated the roots, vein and foliage was removed, the remaining dead wood flipped and the living bits put back on as in tanuki......who knows??? logically if the living bits were ok they would have been left in place surely, if they died off 30 years ago and a new juniper was added to continue the story then it doesn't really matter as I don't think the tree in question has been entered into a major national event...A man in his 70's who has passed many 1000's of junipers through his hands may forget details in later interviews too, we will never truely know.

oso - thankyou so much - I'd always believed the flow of life was a one way street and your description is perfect and confirms factually what I had been told, the tree in question is too precious to risk as it is genuinely centuries old and came from mont blanc in the alps.

There were no pictures on purpose as I wanted people to use their imagination Laughing Idea I will need to style the tree to make the features work so this one is a 5-8 year project at least.........I may try grafting rigida foliage as that will suit the trunk style more and it goes grow nice and quickly too.

thanks for the input everyone

marcus

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:22 pm

Hi Marcus

The reason why I asked, was... I wanted to see if there was a nice spot for a layering under a green branch, in the top.....I would try it if it was my tree...keep a eye on the tree, and as soon as root emerged, would I turn the tree upside dawn, to force the roots to grow in the new right direction.

kind regards Yvonne

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  marcus watts on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:45 pm

good evening,

nothing would be gained from layering really, imagine a 26" long reverse tapered trunk with roots in the soil and branches all emerging from the top - the taper is perfect (in reverse), the deadwood corked and cracked with time and the live veins naturally swollen - I was looking at the tree upside down the other day (don't ask haha) and realised it was an impossibly perfect trunk and curiosity made me wonder if the trunk could reverse the process it had been doing for 2/300 years if roots and foliage were grafted at opposite ends.

thanks for all the input

marcus

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Re: can a trunk work in reverse?

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:21 am

marcus watts wrote:
jun wrote:just watching Marcus  Wink 

... somebody already gave a lead about Kimuras tree.

regards,
jun Smile 
hahha, hello Jun my wicked Suspect friend....i guessed you would be watching Laughing Laughing Laughing  I can see the confusion with the tree 'resurrection', in the early book it appears roots sprouted from the remaining living shoot so the tree could be flipped, in a later interview it is translated the roots, vein and foliage was removed, the remaining dead wood flipped and the living bits put back on as in tanuki......who knows??? logically if the living bits were ok they would have been left in place surely, if they died off 30 years ago and a new juniper was added to continue the story then it doesn't really matter as I don't think the tree in question has been entered into a major national event...A man in his 70's who has passed many 1000's of junipers through his hands may forget details in later interviews too, we will never truely know.
,,,,,,,

marcus

....few people may already know, and maybe you also know the real story. hehehe. You'll be shock if I show you more. If it is a very important tree, nobody would ever forget about it..hehehe.

...entered a major show? "Fooled by tanuki"

regards,
jun:) 

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