The use of the colander is expanding.

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The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:20 pm

Well my brother-in-law on another list tried to share this idea, and got a thumbs down.
Hopefully you guys will catch on.

http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14986&hilit=colander

Laters.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  fiona on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:49 pm

Any chance you could post that here for him as you have to register with the ausbonsai forum to see the images.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  David Willoughby on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:37 pm

fiona wrote:Any chance you could post that here for him as you have to register with the ausbonsai forum to see the images.
Hi Fiona,

There is delicious irony there as Khaimraj posted the link in a section of ibc that one can only view after registering Very Happy (not a criticism, but I was being kind of cheeky then so I apologise).

I shot Ray, the author of the thread, a PM asking him if he could post it up over here on ibc.

Cheers

David

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  AlainK on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Registration is free and it takes a few seconds Wink

A very neat site BTW, with interesting features like a Wiki - sthg that could be developped on a larger scale for bonsai knowledge I think : http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  fiona on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:12 pm

No apology necessary. If he posts the info on here, hopefully he'll do so in Discussion. 

I know that it is free and that registration with ausbonsai only takes seconds. But over the past few years folk have grumbled off and on about the number of lurkers on our own forum, and I see it as just as bad to register for a forum I'll not use just to look at some images.   That's my personal choice though.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  AlainK on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:49 pm

Fair enough Wink

I registered because a friend of mine went to Australia, and I discovered by registering to this forum that Australia is not only a hot country with the bush and the outback, but they do grow temperate species in some areas too. Not to mention olive, and other Mediterranean trees - the kind of stuff I've decided to give up now, that's why I confess I don't visit their pages so often any longer Wink

Nevertheless, I still enjoy reading on IBC about what people in Indonesia, the Philippines, VietNam, etc grow, even if I know that I'll never be able to have a pemphis here, or even a decent-looking ficus Cool 

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Mal B on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:52 pm

Your brother in law obviously hasn't heard about airpots for growing trees on, save's all the palarva of having to lift the trees.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:37 am

Fiona,

humble apologies, didn't realise that you couldn't see the images, been a member of Ausbonsai for a few years.

David,

I put it here, because there is no question and last time Fiona shifted me from Bonsai Questions, so I thought it better to put it here.
I also forgot you have to be registered here to see this section as well.
Thanks for asking the author.

Mal,

months ago I left images of the Airpot experiment being done down here, got the idea from B.S.G.
The cost is probably because the black plastic is probably UV stable.

However about 5 years ago, we stuck colanders in the growing trough and got good results, with the core within the colander remaining intact.

It is a an excellent idea.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Mal B on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:55 am

It works for shohin over here, its been used for a long time now but for larger trees this technique doesn't get the same results, probably down to our shorter growing season than yours. Disturbing the roots any more than every second year is detrimental to the tree, it can take at least 12 months for a tree just to get over a normal repot, never mind being disturbed in the ground.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:10 am

Mal,

isn't it that your trees don't need to be repotted more frequently than 3 to 5 years?

On my side, the older trees go for 3 to 5 years and the only ones that get repotted are the ones in pots of less than 15 cm and even then observation is the best practice. Sagretia t. which is a very vigorous grower, takes two years to rootbind in a pot.

Plus, I remember the older English gardening books recommending that some trees tender to your climate - figs [ Ficus c.] be planted against a southern wall. Would this help in your ground growing?
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:21 am

Just wondering, does anyone here on IBC grows in colander ?
Ausbonsai has lots of info, 98% of those info are specific to australia, but it would be interesting to see what people here [ world wide coverage ] have been able to achieve if they are using that same method.
Khaimraj do you have some pics of your own maybe?

I've got some trees in colander [ slashpines and ligustrum ] but its rather recent [ less than a year or so ] so there's not much to show right now.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:18 am

Yes,
Xavier,

I actually left one in the Tamarind topic with John from Thailand. I have several in the growing troughs, but if I image them for you, all you will see is the tops of the colanders. Additionally, I also have 2 trees in the airpots, one, the tamarind was already shown here.
Let me see what I can do for you,okay.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

* I also have one - the mimosa pudica - for Jun and you, but it is a bit early to see if it survived the transfer - thought I might tease - chuckle.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Mal B on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:15 am

I didn't make it very clear in my post, what I should have said was disturbing the roots of trees in the ground more than every 2 years, because our growing season is only 6 months and that's in a good year lol's, the trees just don't have enough time in the season to get over the stress. Repotting regimes here are much the same as the rest of the world, i.e only when the tree needs it. Growing in the ground here is kept for very hardy imported species and native species, planting a fig against a southern facing wall wouldn't protect it against 2 foot of snow in winter like we've had these past 3 winters I'm afraid.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:52 am

Mal,

thanks for replying. Yes, I understand, the cooler weather, we must be entering the phase of cycles when, one could no longer grapes in South England, as the Romans once did.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Xavier,

here are a few thoughts.

[1] Let us go on the idea that Bonsai is about to leave the 1950's to 1970's concept of a hobby. Get a tree, use some soil, make a triangle, etc.

[2] If the colander idea shows that it is the most efficient way to raise a tree.
You can use more compost and get closer to growing a tree in soil.

[3] Someone figures out that you can take a porous earthenware clay pot, and puts holes at the ratio needed to air prune, and you get the cooling effect of the clay as water evaporates, you can probably use more compost. The need for fertiliser drops as the tree is well fed. The inorganic part becomes more like builders gravel sifted to 5 mm [ for example ]

[4] Someone then figures out you can make a shape to place the trees in [ for the larger trees say 61 cm ] and then place that into a proper bonsai pot from say Yi Xing. You can grow the bonsai in say,rectangular porous clay pots, with the air holes and a heavy compost rich soil.
When you display simply put the clay pot into the bonsai pot.

[5] I am going on the idea that the trees are sun dwellers and need at least 6 hours of sunlight, if not more per day.
I have noticed from images a good many folk have poorly light yards ---- for trees.
So their soils stay wetter than need be, and watering is done by a hose.

Anyhow, on my way to testing the above.

I already use the porous Chinese pots, with glazes, but the bottom is unglazed. So the risk of over watering is lessened and I can use more compost, with less fertiliser.
Ideally, I would like no fertiliser, as I dislike the idea that Bonsai is evolving towards HYDROPONICS [ as mentioned on another list - ha ha ha]

I can tell you how this all went by January 2nd, when the airpot is opened. The tamarind by the way is very, very healthy, having been pruned 4 times thus far.
Later.
Khaimraj

* There are instructions in the old books from Japan on how to insulate a pot, so I gather folk in the north can still do the above, if someone is willing to experiment.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Mal B on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:03 pm

Our climate is warming up pretty fast Khaimraj, and England has a very varied climate range, I can take you to a place on the west coast of Scotland where there are 80 foot palm trees growing in amongst a forest of Scots pine. Wine vineyards are growing in Ryedale Yorkshire and our council are planting plenty of palms and the like's in their roadside beds, the problem is it only takes one bad winter and they are killed of, so anything that can't survive a blast of at least -15 degrees for a couple of weeks at a time and the howl of the north wind coming of our North sea just isn't worth taking the risk, sadly.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Ray M on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:37 am

David Willoughby wrote:
fiona wrote:Any chance you could post that here for him as you have to register with the ausbonsai forum to see the images.
Hi Fiona,

There is delicious irony there as Khaimraj posted the link in a section of ibc that one can only view after registering Very Happy (not a criticism, but I was being kind of cheeky then so I apologise).

I shot Ray, the author of the thread, a PM asking him if he could post it up over here on ibc.

Cheers

David
Hi David,
I will post a few of the posts from this subject.  If this doesn't cover all of what you where thinking of please let me know.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground Planting in Colanders
by Ray M » March 27th, 2013, 2:02 pm
Hi all,
I made mention of this method I use for ground planting in a recent post. I thought I would post a few photos to demonstrate what I do. I have been using colanders for over 20 years for growing on my trees before putting them in bonsai pots. In the last few years I have been trying ground planting using colanders, and it seems to work quite well.

I plant the tree and colander in the ground up to the lip of the colander.




The tree and colander can be lifted out of the ground as a single unit. Because the root ball is in the colander it doesn't get disturbed when doing this.



Roots with soil still attached.



I wash the soil off the roots so I can check what is happening. At this point I would remove all the external roots and put the tree and colander back into the ground. The good thing with this is that you can do this several time through the season. With the main root ball not being disturbed the tree will shoot out new roots. Because of this extra activity within the tree it pushes the tree on much more rapidly than if the tree is just in a pot/container.

Another point to look at is where the roots are coming out of the colander. Take note how the roots are coming out horizontally. This is ideal for getting a flatter root structure. If the tree was in an ordinary pot the roots would head downward looking for a way to escape out of the bottom of the pot. Also, because the roots can grow out through the colander it helps prevent the roots from growing around the inside of the pot.



Give it a go.  

Regards Ray

-----------------------------------------------------
Re: Ground Planting in Colanders
by Ray M » March 27th, 2013, 2:24 pm
Hi Karl,
Yes, that's where I track mine down. If you can find a good dollar shop you should be able to get a variety of sizes. I get them from 100mm to over 400mm. You may also find other types of containers that are useful. There are different rectangular and square containers that have the holes in the sides and bottom. I use the rectangular ones for planting seeds.





Regards Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Ground Planting in Colanders
by Ray M » March 27th, 2013, 5:52 pm
Hi all,
Some additional information.

The colanders work quite well in conjunction with water trays. This is a Swamp Cyprus. You can see how the roots have come out through the colander. The external roots could be removed and let grow again.



A couple more trees in water trays.



This photo is a good example of how the roots will search for a way out. Because this is a pot the roots have gone down searching for a way out.



Regards Ray

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:17 pm

I wanted to say thank you to Ray. Images are very instructive.
I also wanted to say thank to David for making the request on the IBC's behalf.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  AlainK on Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:14 pm

A very good example one of the two ways of using colanders/pond baskets/ etc.

Here, the colanders/pond baskets/ etc. is put into a larger container and the roots keep on growing until you prune them.

In our climates, I think it may be a very good solution for deciduous trees (haven't tried it yet, but I might/should/will?...)

The second method is mainly for evergreens like pines or juniperus: in that case, the colanders/pond baskets/ etc. stays by itself in the sun. thus the roots that would normally grow out of the holes in the colanders/pond baskets/ etc. dry out, and ramify inside the colanders/pond baskets/ etc.

As far as I know, the second method is widely used here in "Old Europe", but not the first one Wink

But as I said before, the first method is certainly worth tring for deciduous trees.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  coh on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:19 pm

I posted a follow-up question on the Australian forum but haven't got any responses...so I'll pose it here as well. Actually, I'll just cut and past most of my comment from that thread:

Many believe that planting the colander in the ground defeats the purpose of using the colander. In their view, having the sides of the colander exposed to the air creates "air pruning". When the roots get near the side of the colander, instead of diving down and around like they do in a standard nursery pot, they die off (due to the dry air). The theory is that this maintains a desirable fibrous mass of mainly feeder roots within the pot.

My belief (and it seems to be backed up by this thread), is that if you plant the colander in the ground, the air pruning effect is obviously stopped and roots can grow out through the colander into the soil. I would also think that some of the roots would grow down and around within the colander, creating some circling roots. However, I've never tried this...so I'm wondering what you guys find when you examine the root systems inside the colanders after they've been buried for a while.

Has anyone done any side-by-side comparisons with colanders both above and in the ground? I would think planting the colanders in the ground and lifting periodically would result in faster growth but perhaps not as good of a close, fibrous root system. People posting on the other forum don't agree but haven't tried both methods, as far as I can tell.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some additional insights.

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:54 pm

I am using colanders too.....I pot small plants for shohin in them, and place the colander with the roots in a airtight plasticbox (humidhouse)...the plant is being kept in open air, show you a Photo later...
The colanders I use are quit small, and I would not dare to use them without the box...exposed to air, will the roots and soil dry out too fast....later when the plant have filled the plasticbox with roots too...do I take the colander and pot it in soil, and the roots will grow fast from here.
It is my experince the roots become denser in the colander, as the tip grow out, and touch the plastic...the holes has to be small and placed dense....it will set back the root, but not kill it..while the root is set back, does the plant grow a new root...later will the colander be placed in the soil...in my case a big pot...it is not unlikely the nebari grow stronger this way...I will bring Photo tomorrow.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:53 pm

Chris,

I just lifted a Celtis [ American type ] after 2 years in the growing trough [ I can chance two years before having to return to a cold cycle.] and there are three large roots opening the slits in the colander.
However the root core is still intact, and I can return the tree to just growing in the colander restoring the airpot effect of getting the roots pruned.

The idea is that you preserve the core and can regenerate it, so the plant undergoes less stress.

I did also cut the tree down from the 10' [ 3m and a bit] to make sure I gave myself an easier situation.
Images will follow later to day, I am pounding out a gold ring, teaching my nephew how to [ solid rectangular lump of metal, just in case your wondering.] and I need some time to guide him.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Guest on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:15 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Chris,

I just lifted a Celtis [ American type ] after 2 years in the growing trough [ I can chance two years before having to return to a cold cycle.] and there are three large roots opening the slits in the colander.
However the root core is still intact, and I can return the tree to just growing in the colander restoring the airpot effect of getting the roots pruned.

The idea is that you preserve the core and can regenerate it, so the plant undergoes less stress.

I did also cut the tree down from the 10' [ 3m and a bit] to make sure I gave myself an easier situation.
Images will follow later to day, I am pounding out a gold ring, teaching my nephew how to [ solid rectangular lump of metal, just in case your wondering.] and I need some time to guide him.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj
Think khaimraj is pretty much right about hes observations....and "The idea is that you preserve the core and can regenerate it, so the plant undergoes less stress." Was my reason for using the colander.


My colander is a two-step one....the outerpot is a bit bigger, and leave the roots Space to grow out, with a saw did I make a hole for the Water to get ot, so that the tree will not drown, when using the two together is it damp inside the yellow pot




shohintree in the big pot


I have a feeling nebaris become fatter this way, when many roots is forced to grow out through narrow holes, from the center.

Maybe...

this is how I have used the colander, and still does.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  PeacefulAres on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:34 pm

Would I be right to say that this is a method for developing trees that have reached, or near to reaching the overall size that you want? It seems like letting the tree grow in the ground would result in coarser growth, and thus more size in the same time frame. Growing a tree in a colander placed in the ground seems like a way of developing a tree more rabidly, while retaining the better aspects of pot culture. Would you say this is true?

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:12 am

Up to now have I used the colanders for small plants, I wanted to grow up to shohinsice, with many roots....when I potted the tree in the bigger pot, in the colander, did I not touch the roots.
that is about all I know about this sort of growing...I never had a tree in the soil...would anytime prefer a very big pot insteadt...this way can the growth better be monitored, and the pot can be turned for the sun.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The use of the colander is expanding.

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