Which season

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Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:00 am

is this scroll for? I am inclined to say to some members that have already had discussion on this to allow other IBC members to chime in first. (If they will that is?)

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Re: Which season

Post  stonener on Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:10 am

Sensei J-san
It's not the season I have trouble with!
or conflicting direction and chop placement,
But struggle with choice of bonsai type and style.
Is this scroll style informal?...Basketball 

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:36 am

Hi Kakejiku

The plum has naket branches without buds,as far as I can see...so this must be very early Winter, the bird is just a bird, without a specific season.

I would never exhibit a tree (so much Wood) with a bonsai...this scroll would go with a suiseki of many kinds...mountain, human, etc. imho

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Which season

Post  marcus watts on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:57 am

hi,

i think using a scroll with bits of tree on it is perfectly alright in a bonsai display but the real tree and scroll need to be very different so a deciduous scroll image if fine with a conifer, a pine branch scroll shown with deciduous bonsai tree etc. The two elements must not suggest the same

As this scroll is a bare deciduous (or dead Twisted Evil ) image it would go with a conifer perfectly well - and generally speaking conifers show less seasonal change so I would be looking for a very suitable accompaniment planting to suggest Nov-Dec, our winter.

twig left / bird right is tricky but a non directional scroll would be very suitable for a true formal upright pine as the owner makes the choice of direction when using a broom or formal upright tree. I think in the scheme of things the bird direction is more suggestive than the twig so I would have a large formal upright white or black pine on the right (as we view) scroll left and a right facing directional seasonal accent plant on the left.

cheers Marcus


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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:13 pm

stonener wrote:Is this scroll style informal?...Basketball 
Semi-Formal...based on certain characteristics...

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:21 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Kakejiku

...so this must be very early Winter, the bird is just a bird, without a specific season.

I would never exhibit a tree  (so much Wood) with a bonsai...this scroll would go with a suiseki of many kinds...mountain, human, etc. imho

Kind regards Yvonne
Yvonne様へ
You are correct about winter season...but in Gaddou system birds are actually indicative of season. This bird requested to artist was for a Yama Suzume or Gan Suzume (Mountain or Cold Sparrow)

Is this Grass planting of reeds something you would consider?

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:36 pm

marcus watts wrote:hi,

i think using a scroll with bits of tree on it is perfectly alright in a bonsai display but the real tree and scroll need to be very different so a deciduous scroll image if fine with a conifer, a pine branch scroll shown with deciduous bonsai tree etc. The two elements must not suggest the same

As this scroll is a bare deciduous (or dead Twisted Evil ) image it would go with a conifer perfectly well - and generally speaking conifers show less seasonal change so I would be looking for a very suitable accompaniment planting to suggest Nov-Dec, our winter.

twig left / bird right is tricky but a non directional scroll would be very suitable for a true formal upright pine as the owner makes the choice of direction when using a broom or formal upright tree. I think in the scheme of things the bird direction is more suggestive than the twig so I would have a large formal upright white or black pine on the right (as we view) scroll left and a right facing directional seasonal accent plant on the left.

cheers Marcus

Good points Marcus...This is a deciduous tree (at least in my mind's eye and based on my instructions to the artist) I agree Pine would work.

The focus and concentration that is put on the painting directionby bonsai artists has been something very difficult for me to grasp as a framer...Not much discussion in my books and from my Sensei about that...Based upon my limited knowledge of Bonsai, I feel most pines are in a Moyou styling...But maybe this cedar is something you would think would work?

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi Again

I know birds indicate seasons normaly, but a small bird in a winterdisplay tell me, it is a bird that dont fly to warmer areas during the Winter...and as I am a western smalltime birdwatcher, was this my logic conclusion...and it appears to be the japanese too....If I read your message right

Reeds would be nice, but not in a high pot like this, and not dense as is, as it make it look owergrown, and unstabile in the Wind, we in this case have to imagine....a low pot, and sparse reeds is nice.

I would never place a high plant in a high pot ( unstabile)...high plant in low pot

Kind regards Yvonne

I see this pot is low...but it is still far to dense


Last edited by Yvonne Graubaek on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : took a second look at the photo)

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Re: Which season

Post  marcus watts on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:49 pm

hello,

yes the cedar, or any of these images i quickly borrowed from a few blogs - white pine, hinoki cypress, black pine - all are classed as formal upright so ideally have no fixed direction based on trunk angles - they are all world class trees to be fair but it gives the idea







If it is deemed the scroll does have direction based on the bird then a less formal pine or other large powerful conifer would work equally well i feel. To make a pleasing display with the early winter scroll and nice conifer I would hunt for some colour in the accent plant if possible - a red tinted grass maybe? Size (height) of accent can only be chosen once the tree is on its stand I guess as the main tree stand will dictate how tall we can go with the grass.

nice thread,

marcus

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:14 am

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Reeds would be nice, but not in a high pot like this,
The photo is of poor quality, but there is no pot actually. It is planted with moss around it. I do not know if it is on a slab or a wood platform...this sanyasou was actually displayed for a scene of the banks of a Lake...

Good eye on the other point of being too dense.

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:20 am

marcus watts wrote:hello,

yes the cedar, or any of these images i quickly borrowed from a few blogs - white pine, hinoki cypress,  black pine - all are classed as formal upright so ideally have no fixed direction based on trunk angles - they are all world class trees to be fair but it gives the idea
marcus
Thank you for the reply and all are excellent tree selections that are very formal, and it would make me very happy to see this scroll hung with any of them. Are there any grasses/herbs in UK in the winter season that have the red you are suggesting?


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Re: Which season

Post  dick benbow on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:34 am

This is the type of thread that I really look forward to following....Smile

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Re: Which season

Post  stonener on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:34 pm

Sensei J-san
Winter bird!, Bare tree! so winter scene yes!...cyclops 
But! is it not Main rule to project coming season?
I would think promise of Spring?...Suspect 
Agree with Ms Yvonne's suggestion of a suiseki display,
I was thinking of display with a California meadow flower stone,
or a landscape mountain stone with spring flower color pattern.
stonener
*wait what?*



Landscape Mountain Meadow Flowering


Last edited by stonener on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : + pic)

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:38 pm

to project comming season, this scroll will be of good use in very late autum

kind regards Yvonne...it has been my vision all the time

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:35 am

stonener wrote:Sensei J-san



Landscape Mountain Meadow Flowering
I am no sensei to you in the literal sense...because I think I am younger than you are Stonener様. (Sensei's characters literally mean someone who lives before)

I understand your point about projecting ahead, but we place oneself in our human anticipation of things, and not the individual art pieces being the things anticipating the season. So if we are in summer, we want to display art pieces that suggest early/late Autumn...If we are in the fall we want to display pieces that will make us want to be in the winter season...(I think I hear Dick's Ice Cave suiseki calling out to me at this point...)

So if we were in Winter and wanted to anticipate Spring, we would place a scroll with a bird or theme that would indicate such...like a Sakura or Ume...

However, Stonener San...I can also see your point because the common Sparrow is also a bird associated with Spring in the Gaddou system. And it is hard to see in the picture, but there is perhaps hints of budding on the branch...So in my opinion this could be a very versatile scroll and be used for either a winter or Early Spring display depending on how you wanted to use it....Thus me leaving your stone image intact...(Stonener has great vision!)

What do we think, is there flexibility in the use of this scroll? Now I want you to think about the color scheme of the cloths in a little more depth in relation to the seasons for which it could be used...


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Re: Which season

Post  marcus watts on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:11 am

Kakejiku wrote:
Thank you for the reply and all are excellent tree selections that are very formal, and it would make me very happy to see this scroll hung with any of them. Are there any grasses/herbs in UK in the winter season that have the red you are suggesting?

yes we commonly use one known as 'blood grass' - in clumps as a large planting and as single stems to make a simple but more striking image


A quick search found this one too although I've not seen or used it - 'firework'


The scroll is depicting early winter as to be late winter or to suggest an approaching spring the branch would have very clearly defined flower buds - it is all very open to interpretation though - ume species flower first - often in jan - then over the next 3 months or so different species will flower on bare wood. In display we tend to depict the season we are in, if we are on the verge of seasonal change ie 1-2 weeks away then suggesting the coming season is also acceptable. You would not 'look forward' much more though - to just physically enter early winter but depict spring would make no sense - the aim is to celebrate the season rather than wish you're life away - it is much easier in locations that have 4 defined seasons too i imagine.

cheers Marcus




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Re: Which season

Post  stonener on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:21 am

LOST IN TRANSLATION? Well I call you Sensei! J-san...cheers 
Because I am learning through you and in this way you are a Teacher, one disseminating knowledge.
A Gatekeeper if you will, one who possesses the wisdom searched for, and with the ability to back it up!
I consider you a technically accurate and reliable source in your fields of expertise...Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven Like a Star @ heaven 
In the Formal Disciplined Traditional Japanese Arts of Scrolls creation and Toko no ma display.
Having said this! I reserve the right to question anything you say!, but only as to better understand the subject...study 
I mean no disrespect! and age has noting to do with it, know many old fools, who like to hear then self's talk.
who are jacks of all trades, but masters of none. Believe me! I have 2,500 reasons which back up what I say!..Basketball 
stonener
*dollars*

As for the scroll cloth colors they feel warm to me, like the first day of spring!...Suspect 
huge swelling buds on an ume, a flowering Japanese apricot bonsai! sure I can see and smell that.
Another unspoken challenge for the viewers memory...Basketball

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:32 am

We have midtwinter, late Winter, early spring, spring, late spring, early summer, summer, late summer...etc.

It is the amount of selected scrolls that makes the delicate difrence...the presents of animals, birds and insects does give theese short seasons...but the user will ofcourse have to know a Little about the nature first...when do fireflies hatc and fly..etc.....and then exhibit the scroll up to, not when.

The collor of the cloth is to me dark, at least on my pc....and I would only use it for winterdisplay, witch I would be happy to do.

kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Which season

Post  dick benbow on Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:07 pm



speaking of fireflies Smile

I see the colors used in the scroll as a time of dormancy. no greens or yellows to indicate life. This thread has really helped me to think and focus on some of the things i need to be thinking more of. By having maples-san use my ice caves as an example, definetely helps me to relate to the illustration. really appreciating this type of back and forth among participants. Smile

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:22 pm

Hi Dick

A good reply from you....I would want the firefly to be very small....maybe I want to look a Little, before I find it...yours are welldrawn but far to big, and does look a Little cartoonish...my favourite shikishi are all with very small drawings, I would not want to use them othervise.

Kind regards Yvonne....sorry for a brief leaving the tread

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Re: Which season

Post  stonener on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:59 am

Hey Dick!
IMHO! When on one blade of grass,...Like a Star @ heaven 
and comparing it to the chop size!...Like a Star @ heaven 
I would think extra close-up! picture,...Like a Star @ heaven 
to better see Bug details or characteristic...cyclops   
I like your "Bitch-en Bug", a bit of hummer!...Like a Star @ heaven 
However a fare amount of background shading,...Like a Star @ heaven 
would help convey feeling of night time!...Like a Star @ heaven 
maybe even better butt glow...Basketball

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Re: Which season

Post  dick benbow on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:36 pm

top two inches has purpleish sky with three yellow glows of bugs in the nite sky. thanks for noticeing. Smile

was up in the mountains tuesday. looking for yamadori, checking on state of ripeness on huckleberries ( they're a week away) and studying trees where the weather and snow load at 6,000 feet made them excellent candidates to dig at a safer time. majority were alpine fir. something you would find right on the top.

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Re: Which season

Post  dick benbow on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:42 pm



that's Mount rainier in the background still covered with snow. temps were in the mid 70's but the air was clean and fresh and quite nice with a cooling wind. saw one deer and one owl and lots of little ground squirrels.

spending time in the mountains where it's so still, is a great time to grasp certain pictures you want to create with your displays. A time to experience senses you have but need to be reminded of what they feel like.

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Re: Which season

Post  Kakejiku on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:43 pm

Question touched on by some of you...for example
Dick said the colors reminded him of plants not in growth or stagnant...
Stonener said the colors were warm
Yvonne said the colors were dark

This was in response to me saying it could be either a display done in Autumn for upcoming winter, or in winter to project early spring...

Japanese follow warm and cool colors, but that is not what I was trying to accomplish on this go around...
I was placing viewer in Autumn with the mauve/Cherry/Purple for one to sit by a Japanese river surrounded by Susuki. (It turns purple in Fall season)

And I placed it in anticipation for the spring season with Cherry...(Ume are usually whiter blossoms)

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Re: Which season

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:39 pm

Hi Kakejiku

The collors you speak about mauve/Cherry/Purple, is not really what I see on my pc...the collor is a kind of Brown, maybe with a hint of bordaux...and the green, is pale and dry.

So what you want to show with the actual real collors, do I not gett...sorry.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Which season

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