Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

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Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  lennard on Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:44 pm

Can't remember the history of the tree exactly but it was potted up from the ground in June 2009 as a bare trunk. Because of all the problems the tree presents I styled the branches but was never happy with the tree. Today I took out the tree  after letting it grow freely for a year.....and not much have changed!

I first thought I should replant the tree in the garden, but with all the advanced techniques out there, I decided to try a few for the sake of the experience.

Here is the "hopeless" case:
A

B

Close up:
C


Do you agree.....or?

Any comments or advice will be welcomed.

Lennard

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  JimLewis on Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:37 pm

I actually LIKE privet, but I think I would dump this one.

There are already too many scars with prominent bark bulges around them, and to get rid of that reverse taper up at that first bend, you'd have to make an even larger scar.

There are trees you want to and can try to work magic on and then there are those where it's simply too much work for too little return. This is one of those times, or so I think.

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I Agree

Post  greendragonbonsai on Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:27 pm

I agree with Jim. In my opinion a piece of material must have something attractive about it ie nice roots, a shapely trunk, attractive deadwood, you get the gist. It may be that you have only one element that possesses this quality and the work on the rest of the tree is then aimed at complimenting and accentuating the best part of the tree. Unfortunately your tree has nothing that jumps out as a wow factor. The only real potential lies in air layering the trunk just above the 2nd branch.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  KennedyMarx on Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:54 pm

I'm not sure how much the leaves reduce on a privet, but I have read that they are tough plants. If it were mine I would chop it down much shorter and try to make it a smaller bonsai. Above the bulge at the base, but below that first big chop scar. Just an idea from a newb.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:19 pm

Lennard,

Is this too much to try for ?

You can hollow out and try a wood filler [ use the chemical drying filler that can be coloured.]
Test on a small sample area, see if there is any reaction.

I have grown the Privet, that comes out of China, it can do what I have drawn.
Best of growing.
Khaimraj



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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  JimLewis on Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:17 pm

Is this too much to try for ?

Dreamer.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Guest on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:49 pm

Lennard and the rest,


Don't give up...There is always something you can do to the even to the worst material that you have.

Here is my ugliest privet, almost the same structures as yours...But much much uglier, with no any attractive feature what so ever when I got it. Think wider and you'll have some answer.


BEFORE:


Styled a bit, to counter the typical 1,2,3 branch it originally have, NOTICE the Base? it got uglier base than your tree.








Created a slab specifically for this tree:




AFTER:



regards,
jun:) Smile

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Auballagh on Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:42 am

Beautiful virt, Khaimraj.
And I really love the work you did with your 'hopeless' case, Jun.
-
Oh well....  my 2 cents?  
If it were mine, I would (mostly) go with KennedyMarx's suggestion.  And in the spring, cut this tree below the big, pruning scar bulge and then just put her back in the ground.  After 3, maybe 4 years of grow out in the ground and some careful pruning along the way, this tree could develop an interesting and very nice trunk, with a great start as a bonsai for placing into a pot. Smile

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  JimLewis on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:36 pm

.There is always something you can do to the even to the worst material that you have.

Very true. But WHY? Why bust a gut on such inferior material when you time could be better spent finding and working on something that has real promise?

Masochism has its limits.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:36 pm

Jim,

isn't that being a bit mean?

I don't think Lennard is in his late 70's and can easily put aside for growing another 5 years.
Plus, look at how much he can learn and add onto his other trees.
Sadly.
Khaimraj

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:40 pm

JimLewis wrote:
.There is always something you can do to the even to the worst material that you have.

Very true.  But WHY?  Why bust a gut on such inferior material when you time could be better spent finding and working on something that has real promise?  

Masochism has its limits.  



..because dealing with difficult and inferior materials will increase your ability to deal with almost all kinds of materials. but doing only the easy things (and it goes beyond bonsai) in bonsai is giving limit to your imagination. dealing with superior materials specially wild and twisted yamadori is not an easy task as most people imagined them to be...and without the basics and with limited imagination it will be a waste of time and waste of much superior materials.
it's like exercising your mind, and not get stagnant with what you have inside the head.


It is not masochism...It's called brain enhancement.

regards,
jun:) Smile 

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:46 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jim,

isn't that being a bit mean?

I don't think Lennard is in his late 70's and can easily put aside for growing another 5 years.
Plus, look at how much he can learn and add onto his other trees.
Sadly.
Khaimraj


Yes it is!
but it is a valid question...It's the same as asking a question- "Why improve yourself when you can also live as a moron". and there are logic why a person should stop being one.


rgarards,
jun:) Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  JimLewis on Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:50 pm

Give it a break, guys!

I KNEW someone would come up with that old "use it as a learning experience" saying. Unfortunately, what you would learn is that effort could have been better spent elsewhere. You can learn with good material too -- and it doesn't need to be that snidely put "easy" material, either -- just worth putting the effort into. And what you learn is worthwhile.

A snowball in hell has as good a chance at not melting as thet piece has of becoming to look like that very nice drawing. (But then, that is true of almost every virtual ever drawn from a 2=D image.)

As to being "mean," Lennard asked, and I gave my opinion -- which someone else agreed with, if I recall -- and suggested he could find much better material to work on.

And, speaking of "mean" . . . what the reference to 70 was intended to imply, I cannot imagine. You'll get there in due time.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  DougB on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:45 pm

If your heart is not in the challenge then the answer is clear!

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  fiona on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:51 pm

I'll make a pathetic attempt to defuse the situation by asking the following Agony Aunt* question:

My husband is 70 - should I chuck him out and work with some better material or should I be a masochist and exercise my imagination with the current stock?

On second thoughts, maybe folk had better not answer the second bit of that question as we have minors on the forum.  Very Happy Evil or Very Mad 


Back to the privet: although it isn't a piece of material that I personally would choose to work with, I think we have to assume that Lennard does.  In that case I would be trying to work it into a landscape of some sort along the lines of Jun's idea, as the rest of the landscape can take the eye away from any weaknesses in the tree.  

Bottom line?  How fast does this species (do we know which Privet it is?) grow in your climate, Lennard?  I've got a bit of privet coming through which essentially I hacked back to the stump so it could grow in again and I could better control where that growth was.  Time-consuming of course, but hey, that's bonsai.

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:01 pm

Can that type of privet heal itself, I have only grown the Chinese type ?
Khaimraj


Last edited by Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Dump it or not.

Post  lennard on Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:33 pm

Thanks for all the responses.

I really do appreciate all the replies and I am really for everyone giving their honest opinions because I asked for it. That is why I asked if it is a lost case or is there something I can do to improve it. As long as the opinions are motivated I respect them for what they are. (When it comes to Jim/JKL, I do respect his opinions - we are coming a long way now and it is not the first time he advised me to dump a tree - the previous one was planted back in the garden.)

The most important thing to me that came out of this question is that I am looking at this tree with other eyes also - it will have to change if I want it to become something - I am even looking at raft possibilities with this one!

This species do grow very fast here and wounds heal perfectly(look closely lower down on the trunk) and I do have the time. I love trees that I can work on every day - finished trees....are finished trees, no challenges then!

I agree: keeping the tree as is I should dump it; looking at other possibilities, I am going to keep it.

Will start a new thread on the progression of the tree - placing bets on it will be okay Very Happy 

Thanks again for the replies - I am not too sensitive when it comes to my trees!

Lennard




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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  adam1234 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:49 pm

fiona wrote: .....and work with some better material or should I be a masochist and exercise my imagination with the current stock?....

I say chuck out and go for better fiona especially if the new stock is a vigorous privet with buds bursting everywhere Very Happy.

Cheers,
Adam

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Rick36 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:05 pm

Wiser and older heads might say - "Rather the devil you know than the devil you don't" !

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:46 am

There are two kinds of people doing/keeping bonsai IMHO.

1. those who are easily contented -of what they have and are just happy to keep a living tree in a pot. It can be a superior collection or just a mallsai.

2. those who wanted to extend further and beyond - they are the ones who are trying to develop eyes on details, forms, design above the average level. Sometimes they will go even much further by entering into apprenticeship. Most of the time these type of people are the ones who eventually will author books, give lectures and help the people on the first category. this category of people will have several levels, and not everybody will learn that much and not every body would reach the higher levels , but the reward of learning is worth the risk.

There is nothing wrong if a person belongs to either of these categories. but what I find wrong is that if a person from the first category would try to stop some of his peers from moving towards the 2nd category.


regards,
jun:) 

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:11 am

Ah L.L.B,

but what if the person who is just keeping a living tree in a pot, is continuously testing unexplored tree material.
Aha!!

Sorry couldn't resist - Laughing Laughing Twisted Evil 
Don't get too heated up, I think we all know how to love an ugly duckling, into a swan.
Laters.
Khaimraj Laughing 

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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:28 pm

LLB.

It would still be included in 1st category., I think. But like I said there is nothing wrong with being in either category.
...and I didn't mean you are in the first category, because you do sketches, studies and sort of things to improve your and other people stocks. and you honestly seems to like design challenges as well.

regards,
jun:) Laughing 


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Re: Privit - problem ...or time for advanced techniques?

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