new stump acquired (not a limb)

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new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:59 am

was previously a twenty foot or so juniper of unidentified type in my neighbours' garden. she wanted to put it in my green waster wheelie bin because hers was full. I've thrown it into a big plastic storage box with some holes in the bottom. I have been severely censured ( Very Happy ) previously for this kind of thing at the wrong time of year before, so I'm aware this is the wrong time to do it, and survival changes are minial, although there are still quite a few fibrous roots and even a little greenery on it. Any advice to help it over the winter? I'm going to put some more compost in this afternoon as I only got it about six o'clock last night and I was otherwise occupied making corned beef hash for wor tea. Classy us. Very Happy


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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  leonardo on Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:34 pm

Bansai the bonsai! Green Waster Wheelie Bin.....too funny.. there everywhere and they are all green.

ciao....Leonardo

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:04 pm

If the tree has been without soil and the roots have dried, your wasting your time. If you cant repot immediately then always leave in water or wrap in something moist.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:09 pm

will baddeley wrote:If the tree has been without soil and the roots have dried, your wasting your time. If you cant repot immediately then always leave in water or wrap in something moist.

only out of the ground about three hours before I got it. Got half the roots covered iin compost overnight and now fully submerged in nutrition rich muck.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:53 pm

Nutritious rich muck is guaranteed to kill this tree. After potting a newly collected tree ,i dont generally feed for the first year. This gives tree the chance of growing brand new roots, and fertilizers tend to burn new roots.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:19 pm

will baddeley wrote:Nutritious rich muck is guaranteed to kill this tree. After potting a newly collected tree ,i dont generally feed for the first year. This gives tree the chance of growing brand new roots, and fertilizers tend to burn new roots.

I know you don't initially fertilize. It's in a mix of peat, commercial bonsai mix and grit.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:36 pm

Im sorry Ithought you meant poo of some kind. Hope theres enough foliage to draw the sap?

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:47 pm

will baddeley wrote:Im sorry Ithought you meant poo of some kind. Hope theres enough foliage to draw the sap?


just what you can see on the picture. Like I said, not much hope that it'll survive, but worth a pop.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Seth Ellwood on Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:28 pm

I have seen junipers with the same amount of foliage put out new buds on old wood but they had not been just jerked out of the garden.If you have a good amount of root left it may put out some new foliage just dont over due the water but keep moist and the rest is up to the tree.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bigsteve on Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:27 pm

hi - i think you may struggle as the branches are all going vertical and in bonsai we need a fair few horizontal branches - good luck with that one.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Tony on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:03 am

Hi Bobby, from the photo this stump has NO endearing features, do not waist your time, compost, room in your garden, energy, dreams on this poor material. There is better out there... go find it.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:55 pm

bummer. done now though. It'll give me a chance to gain some experience at the elast. see if I can keep it alive at least so I'll learn some horticultural skills.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:12 pm

I dont think you've wasted your time. Its better you make mistakes on poor material, rather than good quality or expensive trees. Ive heard so many people say they wasted the first five years on crap trees and wish they could have those years back. What about the five years experience? I certainly had material like this when i started. Iwould dig anything up but as time goes on you will become more selective and discerning. Idont regret my early years in Bonsai one bit! Those years helped me get where i am today.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:32 pm

will baddeley wrote:I dont think you've wasted your time. Its better you make mistakes on poor material, rather than good quality or expensive trees. Ive heard so many people say they wasted the first five years on crap trees and wish they could have those years back. What about the five years experience? I certainly had material like this when i started. Iwould dig anything up but as time goes on you will become more selective and discerning. Idont regret my early years in Bonsai one bit! Those years helped me get where i am today.

I agree. Spent a few bob on a tree about four years ago which I've slowly tinkered with and I am quite happy with now, but also forked out on an elm which I've ruined, so going more slowly now.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Tony on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:29 pm

will baddeley wrote: I don't regret my early years in Bonsai one bit! Those years helped me get where i am today.

Hi Will this is where we differ, I regret the time/money/energy wasted in first 5 years because of the blinkered approach of the club members, and with the best advice both from this forum and inspired teachers there is no reason why anyone should waste any time in creating great bonsai.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  bobby little on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:34 pm

feel free to lavish me with as much advice care and attention as possible chaps. Very Happy

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Dave Martin on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:44 pm

I agree with tony I regret some of my earlier efforts and mistakes.
Trouble it is only when you reach an older age you realise them! affraid

By that time its too late......

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Tony on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:03 pm

Dave Martin wrote:Trouble it is only when you reach an older age you realise them! affraid
Time... its the one thing you cannot get enough of....

Gods own country eh! do you know that I am Titchfield born... not many people know that silent

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:41 pm

Sounds like my five years were a lot more productive than yours. Five years wasted, are you sure? No learning from mistakes. No progression and no enjoyment? How on earth did you persevere??!!

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Tony on Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm

Hi Will. This subject has been extensively covered in previous posts... to to clarify my statement... I started bonsai over twenty five years ago, information was hard to come by, artists were thin on the ground, the quality of bonsai in the UK was dire. The position now is the exact opposite of what I have just described. Beginners in bonsai today DO NOT need the 'right of passage' of working on poor material or being instructed by false prophets... if you have time to waste bonsai is not the hobby/pastime/art you should pursue.

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:28 pm

Sounds like I've got you a bit hot under the collar about this one. Please take into consideration that I haven't had been using this sight for as long as you have, and haven't been involved in the previous posts concerning this subject.

Your post concerning Bobby Little's Juniper implied that he was wasting his time and there was better material out there. There's always better material out there, ofcourse, but it would have been good for him to know what he should be looking for when collecting trees.

Regarding the "false prophets" you mention: How do you recognise one? Don't you need a level of knowledge (including mistakes made) and understanding (from your own experiences) to make judgements. Wouldn't you agree that there are still plenty of those false prophets out there, still?

Well, anyway, this approach has worked for me. I'm pretty much self taught, but know that I have chosen my prophets out of admiration and inspiration founded on the back of my mistakes and failings - admiring the fact that other artists have mastered what I have been frustrated by (and, I include your work in that statement, Tony).

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  fiona on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:43 pm

Hmmm. We seem to have come round to that already well-worn record on what people should or shouldn't do with those "formative years" in bonsai, and in doing so have somewhat hijacked poor Bobby's original issue which was to do with a specific tree. So here's my tuppence worth in an attempt to get things refocused.

From past experience with similar material I would be concerned that there is insufficient foliage on the stump as it is to allow for any real regeneration. From my own observation and what others have told me, I was of the opinion that junipers do not generally sprout on areas where there is no existing foliage, which means that with the exception of the small bit to the left of the stump, there is little if any potential (as far as I can see from the pic, that is). The length of time taken to regenerate anything on that little "live" bit would surely be fairly significant as well. If it had been something like a yew that sprouts much more readily, I'd persevere. But with this one? The gut reaction is with Tony and says no, don't waste your time.

But then again, I'm Scottish and have a pathological abhorrence of throwing anything away. If it was me, I'd stick it somewhere at the back of the garden either in a basin or the ground, ignore it for a couple of years, then go back and see if we were right in saying it was useless or if it's gone and proved us wrong. I have several such stumps (mostly junipers like yours) in my garden - and sadly none of them did anything. But I have been using them for carving practice over the last few months. And very useful they were too for that purpose. So maybe Will has a point too.

I'm afraid it's rather your call, Bobby. Tell you what - if you keep it, I'll make you an honorary Scot. As a Toon man you're halfway there anyway Razz

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Tony on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:57 pm

Hi Will, I have heard your mantra a thousand times, I have the opportunity (via this forum and through workshops I give) to tell beginners that 'it does not have to be this way' your belief/attitude stifles early development...

Am I hot under the collar?... not a bit of it... because my approach creates beautiful trees without the so called 'right of passage'

Students I have worked with over the years have taken raw material and produced world class (Ginkgo Award Winning) trees within the first 5 years of starting in bonsai.. if they adopted your mantra and ignored me where would they be... still with the tea and biscuit brigade... and after 20 years many in the UK still are.

How do you spot a false prophet... simple... take a look at their trees.

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‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:39 am

Hi Fiona,

I'm a firm believer in, "give it a chance", if you have a bit of space to spare. There was something about that Juniper stump that caught Bobby's eye and if he bins it now, it'll haunt him. I say, consider it practise material: If it dies, nothing has been lost. (Sorry for talkiing over your head, Bobby).

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

Post  anttal63 on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:48 am

wow this may as well be my first post right here. hi Will, i am coming up to 5yrs of doing bonsai very soon. i have in the past thought very much like you and it has served me well till now. there is some merit in what you are saying. BUT when we really open our eyes to exactly what Tony is saying; a whole new world opens up!!! i dont regret my past 5 yrs at all but its time to move on and am now looking forward more so to my next 5 yrs. thank you both for sharing your opinions. if only as beginners we could marry the 2 philosophies and get it sooner. Very Happy

Bobby by all means have a play with this stump if you so desire. practice your carving and possiby add some more interest to it but Tony does have a point. if i lived over there i'd be hunting down some of your native material big time! Very Happy

oops didnt realise this is my 3rd post Rolling Eyes Laughing Very Happy

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Re: new stump acquired (not a limb)

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