Newly Collected Juniper

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  JimLewis on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:39 pm

coh wrote:
JimLewis wrote:

And as for foliar feeding, most of a bonsai's benefit from spraying leaves/needles with fertilizer comes from what drips off the tree and onto the soil.  Again the epidermis of these plants is not designed to absorb water, much less larger nutrient molecules.  


http://www.seaagri.com/docs/foliar_application_study.pdf

quoting in part:

Data from Univ. of Michigan Research Trials
FOLIAR APPLIED FERTILIZER

Foliar Fertilization is the most efficient way to increase yield and plant health. Tests have shown that foliar feeding can increases yields from 12% to 25% when compared to conventional fertilization.

Tests, conducted in different locations, under different environmental conditions, have reflected the following;

When fertilizers are foliar applied, more that 90% of the fertilizer is utilized by the plant. When a similar
amount is applied to the soil, only 10 percent of it is utilized.


etc

The above studies were conducted on food crops so I don't know how well the results can be translated to junipers. But to simply dismiss the use of foliar feeding is to dismiss proven results.

These are for lettuce and other leafy veggies which are ALL leaf and the leaf has a very thin and permeable epidermis.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  JimLewis on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:43 pm

juniper07 wrote:Wow... thanks everyone for the load of information. One interesting item I caught was applying a very dilute solution of rooting hormone; I am guessing occasionally. I hope this is tried and tested.

Thanks.

According to the extension office (and I seem to recall also from Brent Walston at Evergreen Gardenworks, but I may be wrong) applying rooting hormone to roots can actually inhibit the formation of root hairs. It is made to stimulate root in stem tissue.

I'm afraid that there is an awfully lot of mythical misinformation floating around the horticultural world, and a lot of bonsai growers seem to have taken it as gospel.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  JimLewis on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:49 pm

coh wrote:
Leo Schordje wrote:Excess Nitrates can inhibit root formation. So while trying to put roots on the juniper, don't fertilize the soil. But when you are fertilizing your other trees with liquid fertilizer, go ahead and mist the juniper leaves with the fertilizer solution. IF your fertilizer solution is dilute, say less than 120 ppm as N concentration, it won't have a strong inhibiting effect on the roots. But foliar feeding of rootless stock is a good touch.
Leo, is this (bold part in particular) something that has actually been shown to occur? At the recent colloquium in Rochester, I was talking to Dave DeGroot about the issue of fertilizing recently collected (or recently potted) trees. He said something similar about the presence of fertilizer inhibiting the new root growth. However, he conceded that was more his opinion based on his understanding of plant physiology and that he wasn't aware of any actual studies that have shown it to be the case.

Read:  http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overfert.htm

and ESPECIALLY: [b]http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fertiliz.htm

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  Rob C on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:57 pm

I agree with Jim as far as the root hormone stuff. I do not think adding it to the soil is a good idea. In my opinion, I doubt adding any root stuff at this point will do anything. Just another thing that might sit in the soil. At this point, you need all the drainage you can get. Also, let nature do the work. Let the tree recover on it's own merit. It is up to the tree to decide now. Very Happy

Rob

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  coh on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:03 pm

JimLewis wrote:

These are for lettuce and other leafy veggies which are ALL leaf and the leaf has a very thin and permeable epidermis.

Direct quotes from the first article I posted:

"Trader (tracer) elements were used to ascertain conclusively that plants absorb nutrients through their foliage, fruit, flowers, and twigs as well as their roots."

and

"Many nutrients are readily taken up by foliage, including bark of dormant trees; even at temperatures below freezing."

Poor writing on that second quote, but I haven't seen too many lettuce plants that have bark and twigs!

Even the second article, which presents more of a contrary viewpoint, states:

"Tree and shrub species differ dramatically in their ability to absorb foliar fertilizers"

which is quite different from "trees and shrubs don't absorb fertilizer through the leaves."

Ultimately, I'm willing to concede that leafy vegetable type crops probably are able to absorb higher amounts, but it seems likely that all leaves have the ability to some extent. The info is out there, people are free to use it as they wish.

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  coh on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:09 pm

JimLewis wrote:

Read:  http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overfert.htm

and ESPECIALLY: [b]http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/fertiliz.htm
I have read that, and that's part of the reason I challenged Dave's comments at the colloquium. But at the same time, just because Brent W wrote it doesn't make it so...

I'll note that in the same article Brent states:

"Plants can also take in fertilizer through their foliage. However this is a much over rated method of fertilizing plants. The primary absorption process is through the roots. Foliar feeding can beneficial for a limited number of nutrient deficiencies such as calcium."

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  Leo Schordje on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:10 am

coh wrote:
Leo Schordje wrote:Excess Nitrates can inhibit root formation. So while trying to put roots on the juniper, don't fertilize the soil. But when you are fertilizing your other trees with liquid fertilizer, go ahead and mist the juniper leaves with the fertilizer solution. IF your fertilizer solution is dilute, say less than 120 ppm as N concentration, it won't have a strong inhibiting effect on the roots. But foliar feeding of rootless stock is a good touch.
Leo, is this (bold part in particular) something that has actually been shown to occur? At the recent colloquium in Rochester, I was talking to Dave DeGroot about the issue of fertilizing recently collected (or recently potted) trees. He said something similar about the presence of fertilizer inhibiting the new root growth. However, he conceded that was more his opinion based on his understanding of plant physiology and that he wasn't aware of any actual studies that have shown it to be the case.

I can not cite the exact references for the excess nitrate comment. As many know I come to Bonsai with 40+ years of raising a moderately large orchid collection (over 1000 orchids). Michigan State Univ. did a lot of work on orchid fertilization, and I believe the source came out of this work. The first author I would check to find the original source would be Jan Szyren. I also believe that there was specific work done in meristematic tissue culture of orchids. I think my first run in with this was in the explaination on the why for a tissue culture media formulation. I am reasonably certian that the effect on tree roots would not be pronouned at low to moderate dose rates. The 125 ppm as N level is the standard dose rate I use for my trees, and it is considered low. (about 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of a 12-1-1 fertilizer). High would be something significantly greater than 350 ppm as N.

So on reflection, the above is in the "vauge but true" category. A little better than a myth, but I can't remember the exact source.

I do believe extrapolating fertilizer information from orchids to bonsai is valid. Orchids tend to be epiphytes, when grown in the home a largely inert media is used (for example Fir Bark, perlite, or aliflor if one goes hydroponic) Both orchids and bonsai are long lived perenials, with moderate to slow growth rates. Analysis of tissues yeilds similar levels of nutrients as % by dry weight of leaf tissues. SO - I do feel it is valid to extend fertilizer information from orchids to bonsai.

@ Jim Lewis - About the rooting hormone. Yes, you are right, too much hormone can cause problems, I probably should have checked sources before making the recommendation. A single dose of hormone, to a cutting with no roots is effective. But to a tree with root tissue, it might not have the positive effect desired. The original poster was looking for anything he could do to improve the odds. I suggested the hormones without thinking it through.

But regardless, I do believe foliar feeding is a 'good thing', but I normally fertilize my trees simply by watering them with a hose that is fed by a pump from a tank of water that I had added the fertilizer to. I wet the leaves, and the soil. I don't try to keep the leaves dry and only wet the soil. I don't try to keep the soil dry and only wet the leaves. So every time I fertilize I use the combination. Wetting the leaves and drenching the soil.


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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:22 am

this tree has one positive thing going for it regarding potential survival.....it is a juniper, they can cope perfectly well with drastic root reduction and many trees have been collected with very few roots, many trees have recovered quickly from unexpected root loss and the really respond very well to hard repotting.

The foliage is the engine that drives the tree and makes the energy - all foliage needs to be kept now and for the next 2 or 3 years so the tree can make roots and regain strength. The foliage needs to see some sun to work efficiently but i would protect from the fiercest sun in your location. The sphagnum is good, i would consider potting the tree again and doing it properly - all inorganic particles with 30% chopped sphagnum moss, then a layer of pure sphagnum on top. the new roots need air and humidity and this mix will give it, the organic mix being used will not be anywhere near as good. water Spray the foliage daily and water the pot once or twice a week as the moss 'cap' works wonders.

good luck - no styling, no feeding, no wonder tonics !!!

oh and tie the tree in totally solid - no wobbling allowed

cheers Marcus

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:10 pm

Marcus' comments (above) are right on the mark.

No iffy horticultural practices.

And get it OUT of the sun. A shady area right next to a sunny spot will give the tree plenty of light without over-encouraging transpiration and dehydration.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  coh on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:12 pm

Leo Schordje wrote:
I can not cite the exact references for the excess nitrate comment. As many know I come to Bonsai with 40+ years of raising a moderately large orchid collection (over 1000 orchids). Michigan State Univ. did a lot of work on orchid fertilization, and I believe the source came out of this work. The first author I would check to find the original source would be Jan Szyren. I also believe that there was specific work done in meristematic tissue culture of orchids. I think my first run in with this was in the explaination on the why for a tissue culture media formulation. I am reasonably certian that the effect on tree roots would not be pronouned at low to moderate dose rates. The 125 ppm as N level is the standard dose rate I use for my trees, and it is considered low. (about 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of a 12-1-1 fertilizer). High would be something significantly greater than 350 ppm as N.

So on reflection, the above is in the "vauge but true" category. A little better than a myth, but I can't remember the exact source.

Leo,

Thanks for clarifying. The key there appears to be the word "excess", which I somehow missed (or misinterpreted) in the original post. Excessive concentrations of any of the nutrients can have negative impacts but the belief has been passed on that any fertilizer will inhibit root growth (and in general be bad for newly potted/collected plants). It sounds like that has never been proven.

To the original poster - that's a really nice juniper and I hope it makes it. Please keep us posted, regardless of the outcome.

coh
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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  juniper07 on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Thanks everyone for the immense volume of critical information for this tree. I am sure there will be others in my situation to benefit from this thread.

The good news is that for the next 10 to 15 days the forecast is in the mid 70sF to low 80sF which is cool enough to help the tree. The shade cloth blocks only 30% light, so filtered light should help. Misting is ongoing and the surrounding is quite humid (lots of vegetation around), so I think I am covered there (I will try adding some diluted liquid fertilizer in the sprayer and apply once a week). The tree is also very snug and anchored to the pot.

The only thing left is to replace the soil with something more porous and less organic. I am a little reluctant to repot because I am not a big fan of disturbing the roots too much (having said that, I will most probably repot this Sunday). Currently, I am very careful in not over-watering the soil.

Thanks.

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  tmmason10 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:09 pm

This is the type of firestorm of posts you get when you post a tree everyone wants in their garden. Obviously it's nice potential but tough that it had to be dug at this time of year. Good luck I hope it works out.

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  Dario on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:21 am

Nice Juniper!
Also...keep it out of strong wind.
Best of luck.
Cheers, Dario.

Dario
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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

Post  Gary Swiech on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:56 pm

I collected about 12 of these old Procumbens from a city project around 20 yrs ago, they were laying in the sun on the sidewalk, and only one survived:



Plant in pumice and mist with a dram mist nozzle or other mister and keep in the shade with some reflected sun. No afternoon sun.

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Re: Newly Collected Juniper

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