Hedge method by Walter pall.

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Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:22 pm

I am just a newbie trying to figure things out and understand them better.
I have been asking this questions...and no one has answered my question yet...I was asked to start a new thread...here I am starting it.
Maybe I can understand things better:
For this reason so I dont type everything all over again, I am just going to copy all the posts. Some I have not answered...so I will answer them here.
Some put valid comments without answering my questions...so I will include that here too.


Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 3:08 pm

I am just a newbie. So I wanted to understand this method better. So i asked WP on his blog some questions...it seems I upset him since he told me to ask this questions on a forum, and kept my post for a day but the following day was deleted. I did not mean to offend him, just wanted to understand. I have lots of respect for his experience and knowledge.
So I found this topic, and since it is a forum I would like to ask, so I get a better answer and understand it better.
I leave in Africa...I have growth almost the whole year...in cold climates You have much less growth...so you try to achieve, as much as you can during the warmer month.
So my question is that.
If you just cut with the hedge pruners, any how, without looking where you cut slightly less than the final shape, You are bound to have some short and after that some long internodes...If you repeat that 3 times, you will have an alternation of : first short, then some long internodes, then again some short after the second cut and again some long ones...and then again some short ones after the third cut which is supposed to be the final one for the year in cold climates...Then when the tree is resting you go in and cut to the first two short internodes....so your result for the year is two short internodes....of growth.
I like what he is saying that branches should be left to grow long in order to strengthen the health of the tree, what I dont understand is why the hedge pruners.
I dont have 4000 or even 100 bonsai...and I enjoy trimming my bonsai...why not trim each brunch after allowing it to grow the same length like with the hedge method, carefully after the short (lets say 2 ), internodes, and then grow it in the same manner, and repeat with careful cutting. I am not in a hurry, and I like it.
If each time I cut carefully, at the end of the season I will have 6 internodes and all of them short, and not only two like with the hedge method. I can understand that this method is good for people with so many bonsai since it is efficient and fast, but how it is good for me?.
What is it here that I dont understand? What are the advantages of the hedge pruners for me?
I recently bought some gardenias...they were all trimmed at the nursery like a hedge...By the time I removed all the knobs created by 3-4 branches coming from the same spot, and untangled all the mess, there was nothing left. I can show you pictures to see.
So please explain to me where I am going wrong with my thinking....after all I am just a newbie, and maybe I dont understand something here.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:23 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 3:26 pm

This Japanese maple was exhibited on Kokufu Ten and on Noelanders Trophy, it costs about a yearly salary of a regular worker. There are many things people say abut me, but very rarely they say that I am stupid. Does anyone think that I prune this maple like a hedge to save time? Would I not use the traditional method if I though that it is better for the development of this tree?

The last image is what you get for having an ugly tree throughout the vegetation period. I fully understand that most folks would hate to see this in their garden. But then they just will not develop their maples and most will go downhill.

These gardening measures can ONLY be judged by long term results.
The main thing is health of tree, then quality of long term outcome, then time takes for outcome, then cost and time it takes to work .

Neli, you picked the least important argument and write as if I did this all just for saving time and otherwise there are only disadvantages. The opposite is true. I only do this for the health of the tree and long term quality improvement.
The disadvantages that you state are simply not present, just look at how close I cut. If you hate hedge pruners, take small scissors and achieve the same result in many hours.

My blog is not a forum. I am NOT interested in discussing things there much. I show what I do for free to the world and otherwise wish to be left alone by and large.


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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:25 pm


Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 3:57 pm

This is how I found out about the hedge cutting method:

Many years ago I got several batches of trees, one very similar maples, the other elms, and then some cherries. I picked the best ones of the batch and declared them part of my collection. I planted them into good pots and cared for them for many years according to what I had learned is the 'right' way.

The other ones were for sale. I thought highly of their quality and put price tags on them which were probably too high. They did not sell for a number of years.

One day in November when the leaves were off I finally had a close look at the sale plants and found something amazing. They were much better developed than the ones in my collection. Their trunks were about twice as thick, the nebari was a lot better. The ramification was much better. The only thing that bothered me was that there were way too many branches looking untidy. So I took one after the other and edited the crown. I had the greatest problem: there were so many branches and buds that it was hard to choose. Anyway, in the end my sales trees were MUCH better then the ones in my collection.

What had happened? Well, Every spring I started working on my trees, first with the best ones, of course. After a few weeks I had done abut 200 trees. I never came to the sales lot for lack of time. So I let these grow freely for a few weeks. When they were so big that they dried out very quickly for having too much foliage I took a large hedge pruner and cut them back ruthlessly. Two to three months later I did the same thing. And then in late fall when there was not the danger of the trees throwing shoots anymore. In between I used my aggressive watering and feeding regime, feeding MUCH more than most people would.

And then I decided to do this with all trees on a regular basis. From then on the quality of my collection suddenly rose significantly and continues to do so.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm



Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 5:01 pm

Walter Pall wrote:
Sam, also recently repoted trees. If they don't grow vigorously I let them grow freely longer. To prune a weak tree would mean to weaken it even further.
The key to this method is NOT to prune with a hedge cutter. The key is to strenghen trees by letting them grow much longer than most bonsai practitioners would. You can afterwards cut them with anything you like, even with a hedge pruner.
Judge by long term results and not by uneducated prejudices.

Thank You for your kind answer Mr Pall.
I have just seen this...I did not notice it before I posted above. I am glad you had a change of mind after our conversation. Since I was not questioning your method of leaving the branches long...I was questioning the hedge pruners...and where you cut with them. Beauty while a bonsai is in development is not important to me...results and health are what concerns me.
Again the question I am really asking is not what should be used for cutting only, but how should the branches be cut. Because you said that this method avoids the dreaded long internodes. I dont know how this is avoided, or maybe I dont understand what you mean by cutting a bit shorter than the final shape. Because as far as I know there are branches that will start growing near the end of the primary branch...and some at the beginning... but both will be cut to the final shape. The way I see it since I have not done it yet, is that the branch that started at the beginning of the primary branch , if cut at the same place as the branch that is growing from the end of the primary branch, will have different length, after the cut. so it is unavoidable for the longer branch not to have long internodes...and i imagine what I said in my previous post will happen. There will be long internodes in between the short ones. That will forse me during the drastic cut in winter to cut that branch to two internodes, if there are long internodes in between.
Please explain that for me...I dont understand it.
I also dont understand why I should not cut branches off that are growing many from the same internode during the cuts, because there are trees that are very vigorous and can form a knob there in no time, which will mean cutting it off all together at the end.
If I cut to two internodes will I not open the inside of the tree to more light and there for promote more budding. I have a tree...I have noticed that it forms but only on the side that the sun shines...if I want buds on the other side, I turn that side to the light and I get buds there within a week. If i dont turn it I dont get...Well that was my observation...
maybe wrong but I did notice that. So if the inside area is shaded by growth, how will my tree bud on the inside.
Leaving the branches long is for both methods...in order to make the tree healthy...Cutting the branches accurately to two internodes...will not make the tree any more beautiful...it will simply give you better production at the end of the year. So please tell me why a branch should not be cut carefully to 1-2 internodes during the subsequent cuts...in order at the end of the year to have 6 internodes production as opposed to two if i cut in the manner of the hedge pruners. What are the detriments of that method.
I quote:
The main thing is health of tree, then quality of long term outcome, then time takes for outcome, then cost and time it takes to work .

Neli, you picked the least important argument and write as if I did this all just for saving time and otherwise there are only disadvantages. The opposite is true. I only do this for the health of the tree and long term quality improvement.
No Mr Pall, I am trying to adapt this method to my conditions, abilities, and needs. And as I said is I dont understand how it benefits me...I am simply asking...I have understood very well how growing the branches benefits my tree and there for me...I dont understand the method of cutting.
And why I had that impression is because this is what You answered me.

Quote:
Neli Stoyanova said...
I did not mean much different from your method...I was asking can I do the growing part as You suggested but just cut each branch individually instead with shears...I can cut it wrong...maybe too long or too short...or butcher it...I am a newbie. Why shears? What is the advantage physiologically to the tree?
March 27, 2013 at 7:07 PM
Walter Pall said...
Sure you can cut individually and spend all day. Since you leave the lower branches much longer and use some sacrifice branches it will look ugly even if you do it individuallly. You can mow your lawn individually. The main idea of this method is to create so much new and back growth that there will always be too many branchlets in the end. With your method you are not having that advantage.
March 28, 2013 at 4:16 AM
I would like to know,...understand...ones you say the dreaded long internodes are not created...that means that you cut them off with the hedge prunners??? Or do you cut them off during winter...when you do the drastic cut.
I would like to know what is wrong with cutting carefully, to two internodes??? That is the part I dont get...I dont criticize anything...I just want to understand.
It is important to me to understand things before I do them.
I am in no position to criticize you in any manner...I am a newbie. I am just trying to think about everything I do and understand it before I do it.


Last edited by Neli on Wed May 15, 2013 5:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 5:12 pm

Neli,

I don't understand where your problem is. Of course during the vegetation period there may well be parts wit too long internodes. When the leaves are off the fine tuning will start. then you just cut off the part with the long internodes.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:32 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 5:32 pm

My problem is that You told me that I should not cut to two internodes...during the 3 cuts...and I would like to know why, that is not good for my tree.
Because if I do that at the end of the year I will have better production in therms of growthI mean developing primary branches...for which in addition I can use sacrifice branches....as I mentioned before 6 internodes produced in a year, all short ones, and with tapper, as opposed to cutting the branch to 2 internodes during the drastic final cut. Which means that my branch will be developed faster.
I want to know what is wrong with that?
What am I not understanding here.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:33 pm


Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 5:43 pm

I told you what??
When cutting during the year it better to cut to last foliage pair than to the second one in case of doubt. The reason is simply that new buds will appear right where the last pair of leaves was. When the leaves are off you probably don't want that and cut back again. Had you cut back to the first internode you wold have the new growth or buds right there and keep them. This is why I cut very close. The other reason to cut very close it that I don't want the crown to grow much. After a few years one would have a crown which is just too big.

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http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 6:24 pm

Walter Pall wrote:
I told you what??
When cutting during the year it better to cut to last foliage pair than to the second one in case of doubt. The reason is simply that new buds will appear right where the last pair of leaves was. When the leaves are off you probably don't want that and cut back again. Had you cut back to the first internode you wold have the new growth or buds right there and keep them. This is why I cut very close. The other reason to cut very close it that I don't want the crown to grow much. After a few years one would have a crown which is just too big.

You see that is what I mean...There is something that I am not understanding here...
This is what I asked you:
Quote:
Neli Stoyanova said...
Thank You for your kind reply Mr Pall.I have after posting the question managed to read all your articles. Thank You..
I am in Africa...growing season is most of the year...is this method OK for this conditions. I understood why not to pinch...but why not let a branch grow for a period of time and then carefully cut it to 2-3 nodes if needed. Why use shears? I dont understand. Is it because it is easier?
March 27, 2013 at 6:07 PM
Walter Pall said...
Neli,
In semi-tropical countries you do this method all year round. Must cut back with big pruners every three months or so and once a year do very fine work. The whole thing is about economy and long term quality. There are people who maintain more than 1000 good trees. And then it is about the fact that what most think are good bonsai is reall just material in training and needs another twenty years if done in my method, or NEVER wil make it according to the method that you seem to like. Pepole like their trees to look as good as possi le all the time' amaturrs that is. Professionaals want theit tree to look outstanding after many years and don't care much what it looks in between. This seems difficult to comprehend, althogh I could not say it clearer than I already did.

I dont understand what you are telling me now.
You said:
When cutting during the year it better to cut to last foliage pair than to the second one in case of doubt.
Which is the last foliage pair? At the end of the branch???

Then you say:
When the leaves are off you probably don't want that and cut back again. Had you cut back to the first internode you wold have the new growth or buds right there and keep them. This is why I cut very close. The other reason to cut very close it that I don't want the crown to grow much. After a few years one would have a crown which is just too big.
When do you do the cutting very close? (i guess to two internodes) at the end of the season????
Now if I understood that well, it means that the end of the season your production will be only two internodes???? Am I correct up to here?
I asked you why not allow the branch to grow....as per your method and then cut it to two internodes (which you call very close AND I ALWAYS DO THAT) the first time...then allow it to grow again long and cut to 2 internodes again...and the same again the third time. At the end of the year you will have production of 6 internodes...Are we not trying to grow our trees faster?
I suspect that more light will go inside the tree if each time is cut to two internodes...and more back budding will be promoted...and the surface area of the leaf mass will be increased...since with the hedge method I suspect only the leafs on the outer area have good access to sun. And the leaves are the food factory for the plant as far as I know.
Why not cut to 2 internodes during the three cuts you suggest per year and have better production at the end of the year.
I can not figure this one out. please advise why this is not good for the tree.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:42 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 7:08 pm

Sorry Nelie, I just don't understand what you are asking me. I honestly have no clue where your problem is.

Just for your information: the last internode is always the one closest to the trunk. You may have many pairs of foliage. So you try to place your cuts so that there is only one pair left. If you miss one pair and leave two or more you will probably loose that growth in the end. But it is not so important. With this method you get so many new shoots and buds that you will have to get rid of some anyway.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 8:15 pm

I am sorry too. It seems I explain very badly.
Your method says You let the tree grow freely, and do 3 cuts during the season, after allowing the branches to grow long.
That long growth of the branches replenishes the food supply and strength of the tree.
When you do those cut you do them slightly less than the final shape of the tree, to allow for growth. In late autumn / winter when the leaves fall off you do the final tuning (cut and wire)
So you do 3 hedge prune cuts and the fourth one is a fine tuning close cut on some branches to two buds only. Am I understanding this part well?
During the first hedge prune cut, you will have some branches that will remain with long internodes. At the end of those long internodes, as you correctly stated, due to apical growth tendencies of many plants, buds will appear and those buds will grow for some time...until they are long again....then you cut again...and the process is repeated one more time.
So at the end of the growing season you will have :
After the first cut:
some branches starting from nearest to the trunk area will have short internodes at the beginning (lets say 2) and the rest will be long...
some starting near the crown might be left with two short internodes only...Correct.?
then you let the tree grow freely again, lets say for 6 weeks, and you cut it again:
After the second cut you will have:
long branch with two short internodes, followed by long ones and again short and maybe again some long ones.
will the short branch that starts near the crown be cut again to two buds (the same 2 buds that it was cut to the first time) and no growth gained at all????

You can imagine that after the third cut you will have a branch that, to make the long story short , will have long internodes in the middle.
That is not advisable to leave like that as you stated...so during the fine tuning operation you go in and shorten it to 2 internodes...
So after the fine tuning cut at the end of the season, you will have the branches cut to 2 internodes...so for the whole year, you will gain at each end of the branches only 2 internodes.
I wonder, if One keeps cutting the very fine tertiary branches at the same place during the season...several times...will it not cause some kind of a knob there??? I dont know. I am just asking, since on one video, a Japanese grower explained that if you cut many times a branch in order to reduce it at the same place, there is a possibility of a knob growing...This is just a thought??? Dont know???
What i propose...and you told me that is wrong is:
Grow your tree freely for the same period before you do your first cut...according to the method you use. Then cut back, but not to the outer shape of the tree, (or a bit less as you stated) but cut each branch to two internodes...in the same manner you do it during your fine tuning.If that is done during the first cut...you will be able to keep those two short internodes at the end of the year. I feel more light will be allowed inside the crown, and there will be more back budding even beyond the two terminal buds.
During the second cut...after leaving the tree to grow for the same period of time as per your method, cut it to 2 internodes again.
so after the second cut you will have produced 4 internodes....then continue in the same manner during the third cut. At the end of the year you will have produced 6 short internodes...
You told me that the tree will never progress that way.
My question is why? Because the way I see it the tree is allowed to grow freely the same amount of time. Why a tree grown in this manner will not progress as well as yours.
I am not talking here about sacrifice branches...to develop parts of the tree that need extra development.
I am not talking about pinching also...and i am not suggesting that so that the tree looks better or more beautiful.
Is it not better to produce 6 short internodes at the end of the year instead of 2? Or maybe when that is done there are side effects that I dont realize?

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Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Walter Pall Yesterday at 9:10 pm

Sorry Nelie,

this is too much for me. I am just a simple gardener, I cannot follow your complications. I cut three times and in the end do the fine tuning and everything is OK. Why don't you just do it and see. Why don't you look at the pictures and stop thinking in a complicated way.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu May 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Moved


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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:50 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
Neli Yesterday at 10:25 pm

I am sorry, that i try to think and imagine things...I am sorry i dont understand every thing and want to understand it. I have been reading 14 hours a day everything I can find to read...books and internet...too many conflicting theories, that totally confuse me...so I try to chose and understand what is best for my trees and climate first before I do it.
I guess if somebody else does not explain this to me, I shall have to get two identical trees and experiment and see what is best for me...and what is the difference between the two methods, since I can not understand the advantages and disadvantages of the two methods.
But the main reason I asked is because I like your older trees more, and I dont think you were using the hedge method then...What method were you using before the hedge method?


Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
0soyoung Today at 1:57 am

Let's try a complicated, botanical/horticultural explanation:

At the base of every leaf is a bud (an axillary bud) that can become a new shoot. These axillary buds remain inactive because of the auxins produced by the shoot tip and leaves above it (toward the tip) that flows from the tip to the roots.
The hardened leaves also produce photosynthates (sugars) that are used to make the tree tissues (wood, bark, etc) as well as being the tree's fuel. The branch thickens according to the amount of photosynthates (sugars) and auxin that are produced by the hardened leaves.
The axillary buds will break and produce a new branch shoot if something happens to cause the auxin flow to collapse. Small and/or gradual reductions will not.

A common practice with deciduous bonsai is to remove the spring shoot tip after one or two leaf sets have been produced. At this point there is little auxin flow down the branch, so removing the shoot tip doesn't significantly change the auxin flow down the branch. The result is that the axillary buds remain dormant, there are only those one or two leaves to produce sugars once they've hardened, so the branch doesn't thicken much, nor does the trunk, nor is there much sugar to fuel the roots. You can release the axillary buds by removing those few leaves (defoliating) once they have hardened. The result is a tree that doesn't change much from season to season which may be what you want, but it is a weak tree, possibly close to collapse.

Alternatively, one can let the spring shoots grow. Once they have hardened they produce lots of sugars to fuel making the branch thicker, making the trunk thicker, fueling the roots, and putting some away for the winter. Further, removing the shoot tip and the hardened leaves will collapse the auxin flow and release the axillary buds to produce new shoots. This is Mr. Pall's way - let it grow and cut it just like you would a hedge. Clearly it makes for a stronger tree.

The primary question many of us have is about the resutant internode lengths. We all know that a weak tree produces the short internodes we want and that a healthy, well-fed, robust tree tends to produce long ones that we don't. IMHO, Walter is telling us all that we will still get short internodes and fine ramification by 'Palling' our deciduous trees instead of following the 'common practice'. As a gardener, I am not surprised. As a bonsai enthusiast, I am.

Thank you, Walter.



Last edited by 0soyoung on Thu May 16, 2013 2:01 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correct spelling)

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:57 pm

0soyoung wrote:Let's try a complicated, botanical/horticultural explanation:

  1. At the base of every leaf is a bud (an axillary bud) that can become a new shoot. These axillary buds remain inactive because of the auxins produced by the shoot tip and leaves above it (toward the tip) that flows from the tip to the roots.
    I know that.
  2. The hardened leaves also produce photosynthates (sugars) that are used to make the tree tissues (wood, bark, etc) as well as being the tree's fuel. The branch thickens according to the amount of photosynthates (sugars) and auxin that are produced by the hardened leaves.
    I call that the food factory
  3. The axillary buds will break and produce a new branch shoot if something happens to cause the auxin flow to collapse. Small and/or gradual reductions will not.

I know that all from evergreen garden works...(my bible...Brent chapter 1 verse 3 )Very Happy Very Happy )
A common practice with deciduous bonsai is to remove the spring shoot tip after one or two leaf sets have been produced. At this point there is little auxin flow down the branch, so removing the shoot tip doesn't significantly change the auxin flow down the branch. The result is that the axillary buds remain dormant, there are only those one or two leaves to produce sugars once they've hardened, so the branch doesn't thicken much, nor does the trunk, nor is there much sugar to fuel the roots. You can release the axillary buds by removing those few leaves (defoliating) once they have hardened. The result is a tree that doesn't change much from season to season which may be what you want, but it is a weak tree, possibly close to collapse.
I fully agree with you here; I do not promote regular pinching...maybe when ramification is needed to the tertiary branches...but the tree needs to be given regular rest from this practice by growing it wild to replenish its resources. The Japanese do that on alternate years.

Alternatively, one can let the spring shoots grow. Once they have hardened they produce lots of sugars to fuel making the branch thicker, making the trunk thicker, fueling the roots, and putting some away for the winter. Further, removing the shoot tip and the hardened leaves will collapse the auxin flow and release the axillary buds to produce new shoots. This is Mr. Pall's way - let it grow and cut it just like you would a hedge. Clearly it makes for a stronger tree.
Exactly! Here we are on the same wave length. That is exactly what I propose to do: Let the branch grow wild...for the same length of time as of his method. From here we differ.
I proposed cutting the branch to 1-2 buds and he proposes cutting the branch a bit less that the final shape of the tree, which in his case leaves longer branch and some long internodes after the first 2 short ones...which will have to be cut off and all the rest of the growth during the season with it.
Did I understand that bit correctly?


The primary question many of us have is about the resutant internode lengths. We all know that a weak tree produces the short internodes we want and that a healthy, well-fed, robust tree tends to produce long ones that we don't. IMHO, Walter is telling us all that we will still get short internodes and fine ramification by 'Palling' our deciduous trees instead of following the 'common practice'. As a gardener, I am not surprised. As a bonsai enthusiast, I am.
No ! WP said finally here you will have some long internodes after the short ones...on branches...I suspect you might not have it on the very short tertiary branches at the edge of the canopy.
But on his blog he said that this method will not produce the dreaded long internodes. It is only logical that you will have the long internodes on the branches that begin near the trunk...since they will begin there...grow....reach the perimeter of the canopy,extend beyond it...and then they will be cut like topiary to a bit less the final intended canopy of the tree. This type of growth will be repeated at the end of the branch...every time the branch is cut and probably some back budding will occur. Eventually he will chop that branch during the winter/resting period of the tree when the leaves fall off to 2 internodes, .


Thank you, Walter.

[b]
My question here is:
(Am I explaining what I mean that badly????)
Is this method not wasteful? Is it not better to follow the same practice exactly of growing long branches in order to strengthen the health of the tree, but instead of cutting off this branches hear the perimeter of the tree cut them each time to 2 internodes, during the 3 cuts WP proposes during the growing season. Then at the end of the season you will have produced 6 short internodes, instead of 2 only, which for me seems like a better idea.
Walter told me that is not OK and my tree will not progress as fast as with his method.
I would like to know why is that? What dont I understand here? Why are my assumptions wrong.
According to the theory you mentioned here of the auxine stopping the buds from developing bellow the auxiliary buds, the same thing applies in my case also, if not more...since I would cut that branch much shorter than his, and I suspect that even more back budding will occur in my case.
I would open the canopy inside even more to light too, which in turn will promote more back budding.
I would also avoid development of knobs by allowing many branches to grow from the same spot, if they are removed on time, as it happens in some trees.
I am asking since as I explained before...I bought some gardenias...shaped like topiary...and when I tried to prune them and make a bonsai out of them....I was very disappointed...
There was a big mess inside:
long lanky branches growing in all directions....a tangled mess where I could not even reach with the cutter to prune...3-4 branches growing in all directions from the same spot...
no leaves what so ever inside the canopy, only on the outside.
I suspect this tree was cut in this manner for longer than one season...so the things got worse, but it gave me an indication what happens when a plant is cut like a hedge.
It actually scared me to cut a bonsai like a topiary.
Maybe maples are different??? But WP said this method is for all trees??? That is why I started thinking and thought, that cutting each time to 2 buds will give me better results at the end of the year.
So again my question is why my idea is wrong? You did not answer that.
Can someone else try???? If not I might just assume that I am right...when in fact I am wrong, not knowing why?
Dont you want to understand things before you do them. I am learning at the moment...and I want to know what I am doing and if advised not to do it, what is the reason for that.

Neli
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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 1:58 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
0soyoung Today at 9:59 am

fiona wrote:
Neli, can I suggest you start your own thread as Walter clearly has no further response for you. Put it in Discussion please, altho I don't think your'e going to get much better a response than Osoyoung's.


Before we move on, one last try. Maybe I can do better, Fiona (thx for the hat tip).

Neli, for simplicity's sake let us suppose that we have a dormant tree with which every branch ends on the desired canopy surface (i.e. the imaginary shell of all the leaves and branches).

With the customary method we will pluck out the spring shoot immediately after the first leaf pair has emerged. In effect, all growth stops and we will have a tree with leaves only on the desird canopy surface. Once these leaves have hardened, we can induce axillary buds to make new shoots by defoliating. New shoots will emanate from the bases of the petioles of the leaves as well as axillary buds beneath (toward the trunk).

With Mr. Pall's method we let the shoot grow and the leaves harden, then we cut it all back to the desired canopy surface. At this point the tree is in the same state as the conventional method after defoliating, except for the differences in vigor. New shoots will emanate from the axillary buds that are left (i.e., inside the canopy surface).

One could repeat the process with the new shoots. With Mr. Pall's method, we again let the new shoots grow and their leaves harden before we again cut back to the design canopy. A third flush may occur as a result. Regardless, we repeat until the leaves fall and then clean up the canopy line as well as correct any sturctural issues.

Similarly with the conventional method one could painstakingly pluck out the shoots to again stop the growth on the canopy surface. The number of nodes retained will vary otherwise some shots will end inside the canopy surface. However, I think practioners generally just let the weak second growth go and just trim it at the end of the season to match the canopy surface - it doesn't grow very long anyway.

If you are following me, you should now understand that there is no counting nodes thing involved. Nor does your unfortunate experience with a gardenia topiary have anything to do with this subject.

I do like to understand how trees work but I am an experimentalist/analyst at heart. It doesn't bother me at all that my understanding is incomplete because I truely enjoy just finding things out. Even if you get your question answered, you should try it against other ideas to see for yourself what really happens. All too often, people really don't know what they are talking about. I also keep it in my mind that there is a huge junk pile behind every masterpiece.

Regards, and best wishes for your quest.

Neli
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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 2:12 pm

Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
papymandarin Today at 11:35 am

Neli the thing is there is no interest to have 6 new internodes at the end of your branches on an established maple, the tree will just grow more and more and ultimately branches will loose taper by only growing from the tip (cutting to 2 pairs of leaves will not produce so much back budding inside the tree than the very short "hedge cutting"). I think what you need to understand is that except for the trunk and primary branches, all the rest is just "temporary". Once established what you need is inner budding to have new finer shoots that will replace older parts that has lost their taper with time, and will allow you to improve the branch structure/movement/taper. So Walter method's is more efficient as it will restrain the growth in global size of the tree (while if you have 6 new internodes/year your tree will not be anymore a bonsai in a few years), while elicitiing very profuse back budding. SO of course at the end of the year you will have here and there faultive growth with knobs or long internodes, but there will be so much new growth than you can remove them and still have a lot of other correct new shoots to improve the global structure during the winter editing.
Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
papymandarin Today at 11:35 am


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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  my nellie on Thu May 16, 2013 2:25 pm

Neli, -in honest hope of not making things more complicated- may I suggest that you concentrate on the below quote by "papymandarin" from the original thread.
I believe this might resolve your questions
papymandarin wrote:Neli the thing is there is no interest to have 6 new internodes at the end of your branches on an established maple, the tree will just grow more and more and ultimately branches will loose taper by only growing from the tip (cutting to 2 pairs of leaves will not produce so much back budding inside the tree than the very short "hedge cutting")... ...
I believe this is the reason why "osoyoung" is not surprised as a gardner
0soyoung wrote:... ... As a gardener, I am not surprised. As a bonsai enthusiast, I am.
Thank you, Walter.
(from the original thread)


Last edited by my nellie on Thu May 16, 2013 2:29 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : adding text)

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 2:30 pm

Neli wrote: Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
papymandarin Today at 11:35 am

Neli the thing is there is no interest to have 6 new internodes at the end of your branches on an established maple,
This method Walter uses not only for established trees but for trees that You are just starting to develop primary branches on also. I have seen many advocate the technique of grow a branch and then chop it to 1-2 internodes...and that is as far as I know how most trees are developed. The thicker you want the branch to be the more you grow the branch...and that is a sacrifice branch.

the tree will just grow more and more and ultimately branches will loose taper by only growing from the tip (cutting to 2 pairs of leaves will not produce so much back budding inside the tree than the very short "hedge cutting").
I believe the cuts I propose are much shorter than the HM. So according to you them more back budding will occur by cutting to 1-2 internodes and not near the edge of the canopy.
I think what you need to understand is that except for the trunk and primary branches, all the rest is just "temporary". Once established what you need is inner budding to have new finer shoots that will replace older parts that has lost their taper with time, and will allow you to improve the branch structure/movement/taper. So Walter method's is more efficient as it will restrain the growth in global size of the tree (while if you have 6 new internodes/year your tree will not be anymore a bonsai in a few years), while elicitiing very profuse back budding. dont forget that at the end of both methods there is fine tuning...where you can do what ever you need to do.SO of course at the end of the year you will have here and there faultive growth with knobs or long internodes, but there will be so much new growth than you can remove them and still have a lot of other correct new shoots to improve the global structure during the winter editing.
Re: Refurbishing a Japanese Maple - the "Hedge Cutting Method"
papymandarin Today at 11:35 am


It is obvious that You are talking about a tree in its final stages of development...I am talking about a tree in the very early stages of it, when You dont want to waste much growth, but channel it to the right places.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  my nellie on Thu May 16, 2013 2:39 pm

Neli wrote:... ...I am talking about a tree in the very early stages of it, when You dont want to waste much growth, but channel it to the right places.
Neli, may I comment that when at the very early stages, short internodes are not your primary interest.
You do not waste growth, this growth adds taper to the branches, which is desirable.



PS: I am a beginner, too Very Happy


Last edited by my nellie on Thu May 16, 2013 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding ps)

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu May 16, 2013 2:44 pm

Neli,

is this what you are looking for ?

Presently I have the tree set for lowest branch thickening and slowing the other branches down.

Apologies for the other post.
Khaimraj










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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 2:49 pm

I have been thinking and reading a lot, how things should be done...and tried to understand it all. (not that I did much of understanding but i tried)
I shall repeat my question again.
As far as I know many people did it this way...and still do it that way...: grow a branch as long as you need to according to its position and then cut back to 1-2 internodes.
As far as I see the HM is fast and easy...good for mass production when you have 1000+ trees.
I have very few...I can spend days on one of them and enjoy every minute of it.
So as a hobbyist what are the advantages of the HM for me....and why I should I not grow a branch and cut it carefully to two internodes, clean any shoots that are too many coming from the same spot, to avoid knobs...and do all in a controlled manner when developing a tree from scratch.
Just remember that I dont advocate pinching at this stage....there is time for that too.
I am simply saying grow the branch as long as with the HM to improve the health of the tree and grow the nebari and trunk, but then cut it to 1-2 internodes carefully, as opposed to near the edge of the canopy.
At the end of all 3 cuts you can still go and the fine tuning , cutting, and wiring.
I also imagine that by cutting to two buds I would have more even development during the pad formation...and more light will access the inner parts of the canopy.
Why this is not good? That is what I want to know. I feel there is somehow wastage with the HM when you want to develop the tree fast, and if you are in the final stages of development of the tree and you have a manageable number of trees, why not take your time and carefully do every thing, even more, in order to achieve the best results.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 2:55 pm

my nellie wrote:
Neli wrote:... ...I am talking about a tree in the very early stages of it, when You dont want to waste much growth, but channel it to the right places.
Neli, may I comment that when at the very early stages, short internodes are not your primary interest.
You do not waste growth, this growth adds taper to the branches, which is desirable.



PS: I am a beginner, too Very Happy
Good! And thank You Darling:
Will I not use a sacrifice branch if i want to thicken a primary branch??? grow it long and cut it back very short. No? Are not short internodes as a final result not my primary objective?
What I dont understand is in which situation is the method of grow a long branch and cut short to 1-2 internodes used?
Because I read that...at the top of the tree to controll growth I need to grow the branch less and cut it sooner, and at the bottom when I want more growth (apical dominance problem) I leave them to grow longer and then cut.
When is that method used???

Neli
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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  Neli on Thu May 16, 2013 3:00 pm

my nellie wrote:Neli, -in honest hope of not making things more complicated- may I suggest that you concentrate on the below quote by "papymandarin" from the original thread.
I believe this might resolve your questions
papymandarin wrote:Neli the thing is there is no interest to have 6 new internodes at the end of your branches on an established maple, the tree will just grow more and more and ultimately branches will loose taper by only growing from the tip (cutting to 2 pairs of leaves will not produce so much back budding inside the tree than the very short "hedge cutting")... ...
I believe this is the reason why "osoyoung" is not surprised as a gardner
0soyoung wrote:... ... As a gardener, I am not surprised. As a bonsai enthusiast, I am.
Thank you, Walter.
(from the original thread)
I think here my question again applies....Will that not be good for me if I am trying to develop a primary branch??? That is what I was thinking????...Will tapper not be created by shortening the branch to 1-2 internodes and regrowing it?
I think Osoyoung was thinking of a tree in its final stages of development...and we cleared that via PM...He did not realise that walter advocates the use of this method from scratch...= bare trunk. And that is what I was talking about.

Neli
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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  BigDave on Thu May 16, 2013 3:06 pm

Neli wrote:
I dont have 4000 or even 100 bonsai...and I enjoy trimming my bonsai...why not trim each brunch after allowing it to grow the same length like with the hedge method, carefully after the short (lets say 2 ), internodes, and then grow it in the same manner, and repeat with careful cutting. I am not in a hurry, and I like it.


Seems you answered the question in post 1.

Why don't you do that for a few years... see how it goes.

good growing,
big D

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  my nellie on Thu May 16, 2013 3:13 pm

Neli wrote:... ...I am simply saying grow the branch as long as with the HM to improve the health of the tree and grow the nebari and trunk, but then cut it to 1-2 internodes carefully, as opposed to near the edge of the canopy... ...
This is what I can think of : More green leaves on the branch, more photosynthesis, more energy, more vigor, more roots, better health.

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

Post  newzealandteatree on Thu May 16, 2013 3:16 pm

I develop my bonsai in 3 stages:

Stage 1 - grow the trunk.
Stage 2 - grow the branches especially the primary branches.
Stage 3 - grow the ramifications by focusing on the secondary, tertiary branches and twigs.

Hope this helps to clear things up.

Cheers,

CJ

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Re: Hedge method by Walter pall.

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