Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

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Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:41 pm

Folk, just a curious point to note.

Much of the information on soils, growing, watering etc. is already in the old books on Bonsai and frequently in even older books on Soil Science, Biology, etc.

An example. When I sift the old soil after repotting, because I use compost [ read also as Humus ] I get irregular organic shapes, much like baroque pearls [ irregular balls, pears and so on.]
This is apparently supposed to happen. So the compost goes from small often sheets, into shapes that are roundish.
Whereas with uncomposted organic material, it might decompose to sheets and fines, and then get deposited at the bottom of the bonsai pot.
I say might, as I don't really use any uncomposted stuff for my trees. Though I might use in a pinch small quantities of peat moss as supplied with the perlite or coir, in the growing pots for seeds and stuff around the place.

The Internet, as does word of mouth, is creating an uneeded problem with inaccurate information.

Use the libraries, please.
Later.
Khaimraj

* A big suggestion, if you are new to Bonsai, find someone near you with experience and ask them for advice on growing, they would understand the conditions around you best.
Join a club as well.

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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:15 pm

Some bits -

what is this loam, that they speak of ?

From the University books -

Loam [ note well - granular - structure ]

40 sand at 2mm or smaller [ Si02]

40 Silt - Rock dust - Feldspar [ will contain alkalis / Alkalines [ CaO and MgO] and some micro nutrients ]

20 Clay

The meal fertiliser - [ actually listed as oilcake ]

Rape seed oilcake - 5 N --- 2P --- 1 K
Soybean oilcake - 6N --- 4P ----2 K
both have trace materials

Or if you want a one component Compost

Luceama leaves - 2.6 N ---- 1.2 P ---- 0.9 K plus trace materials

So ----------------------- if you look at the loam, that is not normal garden stuff, unless you live next to an igneous source, Volcano perhaps.

Bonsai inorganics start at 5 to 6 mm.

If you manipulate the above you should not need much of an artificial fertiliser.

Please note your source of sand can also be decayed rock or sand that has been "glued" back together, think Carnelian/Agate, which will also be porous, and supplys CaO and MgO.
So your sand can also provide trace nutrients.

Perhaps the confusion came about with the Loam, and that it came from the garden?
On my side we can never satisfy the feldspar part, maybe from a limestone zone, but nothing volcanic in origin.

Now I am seeing that the CEC on Pine Bark is low, not high, according to science papers, is this because it is not composted and drawing nutrient to it self to decpmpose?
More mysteries to look into.
Isn't this research fun.
Khaimraj


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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:20 pm

Okay,

collected up more of my notes-

so you dig this loam [ as identified above ] and it is from 1 to 2 ' under the normal loam.

I also identified that part of the rock dust is pumice as well.

Thus we have, say silica, pumice and clay [ perhaps - silica, pumice and medium fired akadama ] to which is added fermented [ decomposed - compost ] oil meal, with rice hulls [ Phosphorus ] and fish/seaweed.
Added as balls of compost.

This filters down through the loam mix and with time, the inorganic has organic in it.
Reminds one of what happens in the forest as leaves decay.

Fertiliser requirements -
The CEC for humus is about 200 mEp [ per 100 gms - correct ?] fired clay is 40 to 30 mEp [ per 100 gms ] and soil only needs 30 mEp [ per 100 gms ]
[ I am no Soil Scientist, so feel free to correct me - please ]

So even if the Silica is low say less than 5 mEp [ per 100 gms ] and the pumice [ I would have to look up ]
Just adding by using the clay part [ fired ] and the fermented oil cake [ humus ] you satisfy the equation for growing bonsai.

I have also see folk using aged rabbit pellets instead of the oilcake, I wonder can you use aged goat pellets?
Do sheep also produce pellets ?

Looks like the Japanese just figured what happens in nature naturally.
Especially since I am working on the idea that the bonsai entered into this system would have all the branches, roots and trunk size [ ground/field growing ], and the loam mix is for refinement which would be next, and just maintaining afterwards.

Not so difficult.

I am very glad that I found the Basic Bonsai Student Workbook by L.Liggett back in the very early 80's, stopped me trying to grow trees in clay and shifted over to fired brick.
Happy Reading.
Khaimraj

* So what happens when you leave the organic out and try to grow with just fertilisers ------- I am not going to say it - chuckle.

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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Okay, have a good laugh at me.

Today, a very old friend of my dad passed with his family, he is in his 90's but the mind is very sharp, and his health, body strength is exceptional, he is however only 5' 2" tall and of Indian from India descent. Being less than average in height obviously has advantages.
All of his life he has been a man of the soil, cane harvester with cutlass [ machete'], vegetable gardens and so on.

So we started talking on the patio, he noted the on going project of Sageretia I have for bonsai attempts. I had just re-set an early attempt, because most the trunk is dead and the narrow strip of life will not last much longer, so I gave the roots a chance to regenerate into a new specimen [ tell you about it in say 5 to 10 years.]

We got around to soil - loam - and he chuckled, touching the stuff in the trough, he said, "nice dut [ dirt ] very fertile."

So I asked him what was loam, and he said, " son, dis [ this ] is what the Englishman did call - Loam "
Boy did I feel foolish.
Apparently our topsoil is loam, and the troughs were filled with loam. Some clay, sand, and whatever else that was inorganic.It drains perfectly. I have been growing trees in it for years.
I am so dense. Laughing Laughing Laughing
Laugh on. I did.
Khaimraj

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I've got a long way to go!

Post  Maliea Chiem on Mon May 13, 2013 12:41 pm

Overwhelmed!! Reading this thread has reminded me of how much I have to learn!!
I need to find a fert w/ trace elements etc. I use osmocote. A local potter told me there ARE ppl here in Portland, ME USA area that are into bonsai but, alas, no clubs. They're all "Lone wolves" so-to-speak.
Libraries & forums, like this are all I've got Sad

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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon May 13, 2013 2:10 pm

Maliea,

unless you are going into Bonsai to enter and win in the Kokofu, judging from your age you have more than enough time, and understand that I started off just as you did, in the desert as information on Bonsai went.
As to the Kokofu bit, you would need to go and apprentice in Japan.

It takes 3 to 5 years to learn to grow Bonsai, and I suggest you start with young cheap plants. Learn to ground grow if you want big trunk, using colanders and tiles.

If you must show off, buy a finished Bonsai from a recognized Bonsai seller.

Expect if you are married or expecting children to back-burner bonsai for x years.

Best to you.
Khaimraj

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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

Post  JimLewis on Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 pm

Maliea Chiem wrote: A local potter told me there ARE ppl here in Portland, ME USA area that are into bonsai but, alas, no clubs. They're all "Lone wolves" so-to-speak.
Libraries & forums, like this are all I've got :(

You can search them out if you want -- and, of course, if they want to be found. Maybe your potter friend can put a name to someone. Most nurseries have bulletin boards in the shop area where you can pots messages. Ditto grocery stores and places like laundromats. The Agricultural Extension Agents in your county, township or parish (whatver you have in Maine) know plant people around the area. Check out garden clubs, most garden club members are bonsai dilettantes (sorry) but many of them will know people who dabble in bonsai and they may know others who are serious about it. Librarians are a vastly underused font of information in any locality; they may know people who have asked for bonsai books via inter-library loan, etc. Failing that, place a (usually free) ad in your local weekly shopper "news"paper.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Old Information coming back as new, book reading versus the internet

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